121 replies to this topic

[Oqaab]

Even then we'd still need to train on it and adapt to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can we train when none of our fighters are having IFPs....

[Saqr]

How can we train when none of our fighters are having IFPs....

Buy 1 Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft, give 6 planes A2A Refueling capability.  Done.

[PakShaheen]

Navy
====

4 F-22P
? Destroyers
1-Nuclear Sub (Project must be in development)
8-Agosta 90-B with MESMA
? mine hunters
10-Missile Boats (By 2015)
2 Erieye AWACS
Long range Anti Ship Curise missile

[Saqr]

PakShaheen

Its more like this;

• 4 F-22P
• 3 Agosta-90B
• 4 ??? 2400-3000 Ton Frigates
• 4 ??? SSK Attack Submarines
• 4 Z-9EC Anti-Submarine Helicopters
• 8 P-3C Orion Anti-Submarine Warfare & Maritime Patrol Aircraft
• 4 Fast Attack Missile Stealth Boats
• 4 Fast Attack Patrol Stealth Boats
• ? Jalalat Class Fast Attack Missile Boats
• ? ???? AEW&C
• Long-Range Anti-Ship Cruise Missile

There is a lot more than this.

[_killuminati_]

[*]Long-Range Anti-Ship Cruise Missile

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How long?

[Saqr]

How long?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite Long.

[Malikman]

Even then we'd still need to train on it and adapt to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they're numerous scenarios where air-refuelers will be needed, yes even in the case of Pakistan.


air-refuers and awacs must be introduced to PAF before 2008....i hate to be so conservative, hell they should be having these things now anyways...

[Oqaab]

Buy 1 Air-to-Air Refueling Aircraft, give 6 planes A2A Refueling capability.  Done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It isnt that easy dude. Why dont U join Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and make such aircrafts ?

[Saqr]

Why dont U join Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and make such aircrafts ?

Dude, we need to finalize our training on A2A refueling.  Its the basics, and its always costly, because you chose a costly system.  Thats how it works, it isn't supposed to be easy and cheap.  Any air force who plans to acquire an A2A Refueling aircraft would need to train on it initially and master it before making it part of its doctorine.  That itself takes time, thats why we need to start on this stuff NOW.

[Oqaab]

Dude, we need to finalize our training on A2A refueling.  Its the basics, and its always costly, because you chose a costly system.  Thats how it works, it isn't supposed to be easy and cheap.  Any air force who plans to acquire an A2A Refueling aircraft would need to train on it initially and master it before making it part of its doctorine.  That itself takes time, thats why we need to start on this stuff NOW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And how can we train when none of our fighters are having Inflight Refueling Probs ?

If U are talking about Anti-submarine training (secondary) then it can be done. But Air-to-Air refueling training couldnt be.

Its not necessary that we need to train first. How can we train ? Installing IFPs isnt that easy as U say. Specially for Mirages.

[ISI2003]

an easy way to train the pilots to in flight refueling would be to order about 10 ft-7p with refuleing capability, that way they have the ease of flying an f-7 but learning the techniques of refuleing

if that is not viable the j-8's are aviable, the best pilots can go there to learn and modify the train to at least allow the pilots to be prepared to know what basic techniques for refuling

also for the j-10, and j-11 the L-15 is being developed, no doubt it will consitute refuleing capability if a carrier version of the j-10 or if the j-10 will get refuling soon

[Saqr]

And how can we train when none of our fighters are having Inflight Refueling Probs ?

Common sence, GET IFR PROBES!

Couldn't the PAF's Mirages carry them, why not keep a training squadron with IFR Probes, and start training over time until all of the JF-17s come.

[Oqaab]

Common sence, GET IFR PROBES!

Couldn't the PAF's Mirages carry them, why not keep a training squadron with IFR Probes, and start training over time until all of the JF-17s come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

  

If installing IFPs is that easy then we might have done it years ago with our F-16s and Mirages.

Do U know where the radar is installed ? In the nose of the aircraft. And with a big antenna radar in the nose it is hard to manage an IFP.

Also, in Mrages, the gun is carried in the nose. So it is more difficult.

I hope U are getting the point.  

[Saqr]

Okay...IF we get AWACS, lets install an IFR probe on that, and train on that scenario until JF-17 & J-10 come.

[Oqaab]

Okay...IF we get AWACS, lets install an IFR probe on that, and train on that scenario until JF-17 & J-10 come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

  

IF we get AWACS, lets install an IFR probe on that

How ?

[Saqr]

 
How ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean how?  You want our AWACS landing all the time or what?

[Oqaab]

Grow up dude. Installing IFPs isnt easy. If it was, we might have installed IFPs on our F-16s ages ago. No need to argue. Think before writing.

[Saqr]

Grow up dude. Installing IFPs isnt easy. If it was, we might have installed IFPs on our F-16s ages ago. No need to argue. Think before writing

You know that the IFPs and A2A Refuelers are needed to keep an AWACS operational capability at 100% right?  Saying "how" isn't right, there's nothing wrong with my ideas, except perhaps your ideas are to ride a two wheel bike 6km without actually knowing how to ride it.

Ask me then, how do we fly F-16?  how do we make UAVs?  It isn't easy yea, so what?

[Oqaab]

Kiddo,

If you are too confident that we can install IFP then why dont U do that for our airforce ? I asked "how" (meaning = how do we install? Can U tell us the method ?). And You have been ignoring this question. Its like a small child saying "we should add 4 hardpoints on F-16 and make it BVR capable".

Your father is in airforce right ? Go and ask him about IFPs. He might give U some info on it. But I dont want to argue with "kids"(I have been avoiding this word from the begining of the arguement) .

[Saqr]

And You have been ignoring this question. Its like a small child saying "we should add 4 hardpoints on F-16 and make it BVR capable".

How do you make an F-16 fly?  I was simply trying to make the point, that we need to do trial and errors on prototypes before we go ahead and add Air-to-Air refueling onto our doctrine if we ever do so.  Its like saying, how do you operate an AWACS, you gotta train for it, no duh!  

You're asking, how do you fly an F-16.

About aircraft, we can settle that issue somehow, we're simply trying out A2A Refueling, we don't need advanced avionics on the planes we're using, how do you think they test JF-17?

[Oqaab]

Its NOT necessary to train first with IFPs. Our airforce is not stupid enough to install IFPs on AWACS and start training (as U said) because in that case, we dont need A-A refueling planes (since we have installed IFPs on AWACS) and aircafts like P-3C Orions and Atlantiques will become useless.

And U are again hesitating in answering me. Can U tell us the method U know about installation of IFPs on aircrafts ....

[General]

F-16's don't have IFP's the long pipe ( tell me what you call it I forgot) is inserted behind the cockpit.And I don't know if an AWACS needs an IFP I mean in Pakistan because an AWACS does have a very long range.ANother thing I am sorry I used the word AWACS here coz it refers only to E-3 Sentry.the proper word is AEW&C

[Saqr]

Its NOT necessary to train first with IFPs. Our airforce is not stupid enough to install IFPs on AWACS and start training (as U said) because in that case, we dont need A-A refueling planes (since we have installed IFPs on AWACS) and aircafts like P-3C Orions and Atlantiques will become useless.

And U are again hesitating in answering me. Can U tell us the method U know about installation of IFPs on aircrafts ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was at school.  If you haven't noticed todays a school day, and some of us have lives to live to.  Re-read your post dude.

[Oqaab]

Anyways, as ACM has said, PAF will be having high-tech aircrafts in three years. The Mirage 2000-5 could be the choice (if PAF have ordered planes now). So Air-Air refueling training will be done on them.

[Saqr]

Mirage 2000-5 could be the choice (if PAF have ordered planes now)

I doubt its Mirage 2000-5.  I think a deal will be publically disclosed sometime in early January or Feburary.  Right now, the PAF desires 18 used F-16A/B MLUs, and possibly up to 70 F-16C/Ds.  The PAF's also testing J-10 right now too.

[Oqaab]

I doubt its Mirage 2000-5.  I think a deal will be publically disclosed sometime in early January or Feburary.  Right now, the PAF desires 18 used F-16A/B MLUs, and possibly up to 70 F-16C/Ds.  The PAF's also testing J-10 right now too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, PAF will not disclose the fighter it is going to purchase until it gets some of its F-16s upgraded. Lets not forget the US attitude towards the JF-17 aircraft.

[Saqr]

Sorry, my mistake, the PAF desires 18 used F-16A/B MLUs + MLU Modules for 32 F-16A/Bs.  After that, it wants around 40 F-16C/D Block-50s, which would come for around 2bn USD, including large stockpiles of spare-parts and ammunition.  Ofcourse, this isn't like I'm saying it'll happen, but thats the PAF plan.

[PakShaheen]

What about SAMs Guys.

Can we get any thing like PAC-3,Arrow,V-400,S-300....etc.? Looking not so promising except if Pak itself made some thing like that with help of China.

[General]

What about SAMs Guys.

Can we get any thing like PAC-3,Arrow,V-400,S-300....etc.? Looking not so promising except if Pak itself made some thing like that with help of China.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

last time I heard the US was giving Pak PAC-2

[Saqr]

The PAF is buying some Chinese Long-Range SAM, FT-2000 or HQ-9A.

[PakShaheen]

Diving Falcon
=========
Isn't FT-2000 is an anti radiation.Plus can you tell me the specifications of HQ-9A?

[ISI2003]

i thought ft-2000 was a conventional long range sam

[_killuminati_]

FT-2000 or HQ-9A.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is the range of these 2?

[Saqr]

All I know is HQ-9 and FT-2000 are Long-Range SAMs.

[Oqaab]

FT-2000 is an anti-radiation AWACS killer missile with a range of 100 km.

HQ-9A might have a range of 70 km.

[_killuminati_]

Any other good long range SAMs?

[PakShaheen]

Any other good long range SAMs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are options but hard to get for PA.As it us not an easy task to induct and deploy a long range SAM.It works in form of complete unit.Which include Radars,Command center,Missile Betteries..etc.
If we get all these from different sources then integration is a problem.I will post other SAM options soon.

[deltared075]

Any other good long range SAMs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

S300 with range 200km and S400 with range 400km, but i doubt Pakistan can buy that from the Russian, maybe can buy the chinese copy.

[PakShaheen]

Russian
=====

SA-10  (S-300 MPU)
SA-20 (V-400)

China
====

HQ-18  [Copy of S-300V / SA-12A GLADIATOR and SA-12B GIANT ]

HQ-18 Spcifications

This is what PA needs from China along with FT-2000.

Sweeden
======

RBS 23 BAMSE

Details

Franco-Italian joint venture
=================

Read details

[ISI2003]

if HQ-18 is a s-300 copy, what eare the odds it is in mass production and aviable for export, because it would be discussed, if it were aviable for export