18 replies to this topic

[Rocyu]

ok

[rungroot]

Link or source?

[China Qingdao]

无图无真相 No Pictures ,No truth And I don't know about....R they going to equip Pakistan? I think It's China

[Caesar]

I wouldn't be surprised. The relationship between Pak and China has some aspects which appear to be very secret.

[rungroot]

I wouldn't be surprised. The relationship between Pak and China has some aspects which appear to be very secret.

Most of them are secret. There is a reason why neither america nor india have attacked yet even though both have had deep intentions of doing so for the last 12 years.

[macau boy]

The element of surprise is a very powerful weapon.

[Dizasta]

Any update yet, regarding the six Chinese Qing Class Subs and two 054A Air Defense Destroyers?

[pak fighter]

guys any information or development on qing class submarines and 54 A's ??

[nuclearpak]

guys any information or development on qing class submarines and 54 A's ??

O yar kuch nhn honay wala.

Just sit back and relax.

Everything is at the moment postponed or cancelled.

[tank131]

Need $$$ to buy things...even from china.

[pak fighter]

balls to the ppp gov man,,,,crippled economy during these 5 years.

[Saqr]

This is from another thread on this forum, consider it an update:

 

China, Pakistan set for submarine deal by end of year, say officials

 

Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

02 February 2014

 

Pakistan could sign a deal to buy up to six submarines from China before the end of 2014, senior Pakistani government officials have told IHS Jane's .

 

A Pakistani government minister revealed in March 2011 that China had offered to sell up to six submarines to Pakistan although he did not specify details of the boats on offer. Western officials in Islamabad suggest that China's subsequent international marketing of the 'S20' or Yuan-class diesel-electric submarine (SSK) suggests it could be a potential option for Pakistan.

 

A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane's that "the technical details are almost done. The present discussions are mainly about the financing details". A second Pakistani government official confirmed that "the contract is in an advanced stage and discussions will not linger on for too long. Realistically, we should have a deal by end 2014".

 

The submarine contract would further cement China's rapidly growing role as the main supplier of military hardware to Pakistan's armed forces and fill an important gap in Pakistan Navy (PN) capabilities. The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s. In 2009, the PN sought to purchase three German-built Type 214 submarines, but the plan was put on hold due to costs that at the time were reported to be in excess of USD2 billion.

 

Recent Sino-Pakistan contracts of potential interest to Islamabad's strategic interests include China's agreement to provide two large civil nuclear reactors to be based close to Karachi. According to Pakistani officials China's Eximbank agreed to extend a USD6.5 billion loan for the two reactors.

 

Additionally, the Sino-Pakistani-built JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft is reportedly the subject of talks between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia: a potential deal that Western officials said would not be discussed without Beijing's explicit consent.

 

COMMENT

 

A Sino-Pakistan submarine contract will be closely watched by Western officials for any signs that may suggest progression towards nuclear-powered boats. Pakistan's defence planners consider the absence of such a platform - which they would eventually want to see armed with submarine-launched nuclear ballistic missiles - as major disadvantage in a potential conflict with India.

 

However, Western officials believe China will hesitate to extend such advanced technology to Pakistan given the potential for a harsh reaction from the United States and its allies.

 

http://www.janes.com...r-say-officials

[Simpleton]

http://www.thenews.c...ines-from-China

[Simpleton]

ISLAMABAD: The National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence was informed on Tuesday that the federal government had endorsed a summary to get eight submarines from China. The committee met here under the chairmanship of Sheikh Rohail Asghar.

The Pakistan Navy officials told the committee that Secretary of the Economic Affairs Division Muhammad Saleem Sethi would be leaving for China today (Wednesday) where the issue was expected to come under discussion.

The officials also said that the national security committee would give the final nod to the plan to get eight submarines from China.

“Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan Navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines,” the officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan. They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France’s refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members’ concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality. They said there was no such issue at hand as the JF-17 Thunder had proven to be a world-class military jet.

The officials informed the standing committee that Pakistan’s defence relations with Russia were also improving.

Meanwhile, the NA’s standing committee strongly opposed sending the Pakistani troops to Yemen and adopted the stance that such an action could have volatile implications in the country, which the current government was incapable of handling.

Defence Secretary Lt-Gen (retd) Alam Khattak said that Pakistan Army would abide by the government’s decision on whether to send troops to Saudi Arabia to take part in a military campaign in Yemen.

This was the first time that the defence secretary spelled out the official stance of the Pakistan Army on sending troops to Saudi Arabia to take part in a military campaign in Yemen.

His brief comment came in response to a volley of questions by the committee members as to whether military troops would be sent to the Saudi kingdom.

Chairman Sheikh Rohail Asghar maintained that the Pakistan Army should chase the terrorists regardless of their location but women members belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) and Awami National Party (ANP) had a different point of view.

On the other hand, there appeared to be a divide among the committee members whether Pakistan should send troops to Saudi Arabia.

Committee member MNA Musarrat Zaib said that Pakistan should avoid sending troops to Yemen as it was not our war and we have had enough on our plate.MNA Kishwar Zehra said that there was no threat to Makkah and Madina, hence the army should not go.

[Simpleton]

Yesterday, the Pakistani government confirmed the purchase of eight new submarines from China. “The National Security Committee has approved, in principle, the acquisition of eight Chinese submarines,” Additional Secretary of the Ministry of Defense, Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, informed the National Assembly’s Standing Committee on Defence in Islamabad.

Details on the type of vessels or their price tag are murky. IHS Jane’s quotes an unnamed Pakistani Foreign Ministry official who said that, “in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines.”

According to IHS Jane’s Fighting Ships the Type 041 Yuan-class is,“a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.” The export version of the vessel allegedly displaces about 2,300 tons, according to public sources.

However, as I noted here, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) supposedly had already signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 Qing-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. Apparently, this deal must be off the table now.

Still other media sources report that Islamabad will build submarines under license based on the Qing-class vessels displacing 3,000 tons: “Pakistan will also build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi.”

The procurement of a new fleet of submarines constitutes Islamabad’s most expensive arms deal by far. Estimated total costs range between $4-5 billion. IHS Jane’s quotes a former Pakistani defense official who said that it is “difficult to imagine a price of less than USD 500 million per submarine, if not more.”

He also said that he suspects China to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate. Another Pakistani military expert told the Financial Times that there are still many unknowns: “At this stage, we don’t know the exact financial terms and unless we know the financial terms we can’t be certain about the significance of this order,” he said. “Still, it’s an important contract for Pakistan.”

Ali Sarwar Naqvi, a former senior Pakistani diplomat, said about Beijing’s rationale behind the weapons deal: “China has its own strategic reasons to help Pakistan in this area. As India prepares to head in to the Pacific Ocean, the Chinese are looking to head in to the Indian Ocean.”

[Simpleton]

http://thediplomat.c...t-chinese-subs/

[Simpleton]

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

[Simpleton]

http://www.defensene...china/25233481/

[vishwaprasad]

8 submarines will be a huge boost to Pak namy but thank god we have P8I Posidons which gives us the most advanced ASW capacity in Asia