232 replies to this topic

[Wohi]

He is NOT our President. He is an usurper or power who violated the constitution of Pakistan and imposed martial law twice and is liable to hanged under constitutional provisions.

[Pappu Paanwala]

musharraf is a pimp of our mothers , sisters
shame on us we cannot gun him down

Respect the office if not the person.

[complicated]

i am all for strong institutions but no body can deny that she was transferred to prison while musharaf was in power, in case you dont know i am a Pakistani too
dont you feel the it that she has to go through so much trouble and pain

[Wohi]

Nobody is disrespecting the office ... this person is an usurper of that office under the provisions of the constitution of Pakistan... which is the highest law of the country ... he is the biggest insult to the office of President ...

[must7]

Nobody is disrespecting the office ... this person is an usurper of that office under the provisions of the constitution of Pakistan... which is the highest law of the country ... he is the biggest insult to the office of President ...

Consitution of Pakistan is man made, so many revisions and updates .. makes you wonder what eally is the constition .. in fact the main guy who made the actually made the full constitution was a Civilian Miliitary dictator !

am all for strong institutions but no body can deny that she was transferred to prison while musharaf was in power, in case you dont know i am a Pakistani too
dont you feel the it that she has to go through so much trouble and pain

You seem to forget the fact that in difficult times many wrong things happen .. You seem to forget that Taleban were removed during the time of Gen. Musharaff .. they were carpet bombed in Afghanistan with daisy cutters .. including the Taleban there were kids, cattles & trees which were ripped and decimated ! Now .. suppose that too was a major sin of Gen. Musharaff !

While my own head hangs in shame for the ordeal which my Sister had to go through but what about the people for whom she has suffered, what did they do about it ! HOw much hue & cry have they done on her front while she was in the illegal confinement !

[Wohi]

The constitution is man made and so is everything else my friend ... but the difference is that 1973 constitution was made by a parliament through a democratic process and hence reflects the WILL OF THE PEOPLE and has the RIGHT to do so.... and thus has legitimacy while the travesties that Musharraf has tried to force into it to justify his own unconstitutional, illegal rule does not .... The Pakistan which Quaid-e-Azam fought for was a democratic Pakistan, governed under the supreme law of the land i.e. the constitution of Pakistan which reflected the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.... if for you the fact that constitution was man made is enough to throw it aside (even though it is the highest law of the land)... then why do you hang killers in Pakistan under a lesser law? All laws in the country in any case are of lesser value than the constitution ... .and hence... let all robbers, killers, rapists go .... since you dont respect laws anyway.

[must7]

The constitution is man made and so is everything else my friend ... but the difference is that 1973 constitution was made by a parliament through a democratic process

You mean to say the parliament which was of 1973 which came after Bhutto refused the elections of 1971 as the figures were not as per his liking !

The Pakistan which Quaid-e-Azam fought for was a democratic Pakistan, governed under the supreme law of the land i.e. the constitution of Pakistan which reflected the WILL OF THE PEOPLE

The Pakistan which Quaid-e-Azam chose did not even have an official fasting during Ramadan during his rule. He was a secular to the core and without a reason of doubt that I agree on this .. that we are long way off from the route of Quaid-e-Azam .. and I would say .. we have hardly done anything as per the likes of Quaid-e-Azam who was sent to Zirat to die without professional medical care ! I mean why was he sent to Zirat .. why when our elder gets sick do we bring him to remote mountains in the world or we take him to the best hospital in the world !

then why do you hang killers in Pakistan under a lesser law? All laws in the country in any case are of lesser value than the constitution ... .and hence... let all robbers, killers, rapists go .... since you dont respect laws anyway.

Brother ... In Pakistan it is the law of the jungle which has the final say.

[Wohi]

Bhutto did loose in East Pakistan but he did have a vast majority in West Pakistan. .. and hence after the breakup of East Pakistan... that parliament DID represent the WILL OF THE PEOPLE of the new Pakistan ... hence you have a legitimate 1973 constitution ....  

You righfully mentioned that Pakistan is a long way off from what Quaid-e-Azam envisioned and that the law of the jungle prevails in the country ....  my question to you is ... Are we going to keep on accepting the law of the jungle as a people? Are we going to keep on accepting a Pakistan whose soul has been snatched away by usurpers of power ... or are we as a people try to bring rule of law and constitution in our country ... to at least try to put it on a course which will overtime result in a Pakistan which will have rule of law and constitution and independence of judiciary... where the rights of its citizens will be respected ...where Pakistan's daughters and mothers are not sold off to foreign agencies so that military dictators can count on their support to continue their illegal stint in power?

As a patriotic Pakistani, I know that you will want the same ..... then lets support that cause ... lets not accept what is illegal as acceptable ... lets support and uphold our constitution, our laws, the independence of our courts, the freedom and rights of our people ... so that there are no more Dr.  Afias ..... and no more NROs signed by dictators to get support from corrupt politicians ...

[*Zarrar Jareeh*]

Wohi please answer my question. What has your Ganja done after being in power for a good 4 months now?? Did he even raise the issue of Dr. Aafia even once?? For him it is more important that Kaana Dajjal Ifti Ch. (his stooge) is placed in the supreme court and he can begin his corruption rampage.

[Wohi]

I am not a supporter of Nawaz Sharif .... and I dont need to be answerable for his actions ... but what I do know is that this is not the Pakistan Quaid envisioned ... selling off of the daughters and mothers of Pakistan is a direct result of total destruction of rule of law, constitutions and rights of the people by dictators like Musharraf ...  Now my question to you is ... are you going to support upholding the constitution, rule of law and independence of judiciary and rights of the Pakistani people or are you going to keep on saying Wah Wah Pak Fauj zindabad ...

[dargay]

I am not a supporter of Nawaz Sharif .... and I dont need to be answerable for his actions ... but what I do know is that this is not the Pakistan Quaid envisioned ... selling off of the daughters and mothers of Pakistan is a direct result of total destruction of rule of law, constitutions and rights of the people by dictators like Musharraf ...  Now my question to you is ... are you going to support upholding the constitution, rule of law and independence of judiciary and rights of the Pakistani people or are you keep on saying Wah Wah Pak Fauj zindabad ...

this woman is a terrorist, if you disagree then you can go to the USA and ask for her back, if you have the balls.

[MoThSmOkE]

Al-Jazeera newspiece claims that she was handed over to the Americans by Afghan police in Afghanistan in July '07. This is quite confusing.

Whatever happened, its a dastardly act and our foreign office should atleast make an effort to have the Yankees pay for this.

[*Zarrar Jareeh*]

this woman is a terrorist, if you disagree then you can go to the USA and ask for her back, if you have the balls.

     

I am not a supporter of Nawaz Sharif .... and I dont need to be answerable for his actions ... but what I do know is that this is not the Pakistan Quaid envisioned ... selling off of the daughters and mothers of Pakistan is a direct result of total destruction of rule of law, constitutions and rights of the people by dictators like Musharraf ...  Now my question to you is ... are you going to support upholding the constitution, rule of law and independence of judiciary and rights of the Pakistani people or are you going to keep on saying Wah Wah Pak Fauj zindabad ...

What lame agenda do you have against Pak Fauj?? If you don't like Pak Fauj then f*ck off and don't come on this forum. Musharraf is a civilian president and Pakistan is being run by civilian elected government. Why do you have to drag Pak fauj in this?

And if she indeed was a terrorist or a supporter then there must be some evidence against here and in that case I don't give a crap as to what happens to her.

[Wohi]

Prove it that she is a terrorist....  but you cant ... you know why? because there was no trial to say the least... let alone an independent trial... she was whisked away on uncle sam's request ... because our military dictator needed to keep uncle sam happy to keep his illegal stint in power ....  you CANNOT say that she is a terrorist .. you have NO PROOF... and even if she is ... she has to be presumed INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.. All legal systems in the world act on that ...  how will you feel if you are taken away one day without any trial on an allegation that you are a terrorist ... and end up being tortured in Afghanistan for 5 years?  Do you remember what the Prophet said about earlier nations getting destroyed because they did not have justice ... what have we come down to ..... Allah forgive us ... we do not provide justice to our weak ...  we do not treat them like human beings ...

[KudosBot]

Pakistan: Al-Qaeda suspect victim of "conspiracy", says sister

Karachi, 6 August (AKI) - By Syed Saleem Shahzad - Fauzia Siddiqui, sister of Al-Qaeda suspect Aafia Siddiqui, has tearfully defended her sibling saying she was the subject of an international conspiracy.

Speaking to Adnkronos International (AKI) by telephone, Fauzia Siddiqui said her sister had been unfairly targeted by US, Afghan and Pakistani intelligence services. She began crying as she spoke to AKI.

"We are just the family of a poor girl who suddenly went missing while going to the airport," Siddiqui told AKI.

"Now we are informed several years after that she is in US custody. We dont have any facts about her situation we can just guess about the torture against her, the food she was fed and about her surroundings during detention."

Aafia Siddiqui, 36, is a US-educated neuroscientist and the only woman accused of working for al-Qaeda’s top leadership.

She went missing in 2003 with her three children after leaving her Karachi residence on the way to the airport.

Siddiqui appeared in court in New York on Tuesday accused of assaulting and attempting to kill US personnel sent to take custody of her in Afghanistan last month.

She is facing 20 years in prison on each charge if convicted, but her lawyer has rejected the charges.

Human rights activists retired squadron leader Khalid Khawaja said Siddiqui has been unfairly treated by US intelligence.

"Americans have done what is generally done in the rogue police states where people are detained under false charges," Khawaja told AKI.

"This is a conspiracy against Aafia Siddiqui in which the security agencies of Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States are involved."

Siddiqui's family believes that the Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, was responsible for her detention.

Family sources told AKI in 2004 that ISI officials called her mother and asked her not to make public statements and that she would be released soon.

The then Pakistani Interior Minister Syed Faisal Saleh Hayat also confirmed her arrest in a media statement and at the time said that she would be released soon.

She was allegedly handed over to US officials and transferred to Bagram Airbase detention centre.

The fate of her children is still unknown. However, a few days ago, the American FBI claimed to have arrested Siddiqui on charges related to the attempted murder and assault of US officers and employees in Afghanistan. Siddiqui was transferred to New York on 4 August.

"This trial will cost the US and its allies like Pakistan and Afghanistan very dearly," Khawaja said.

Human rights bodies such as the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan have taken a clear position on Aafia Siddiqui's case and called for her release.

[Pappu Paanwala]

     
What lame agenda do you have against Pak Fauj?? If you don't like Pak Fauj then f*ck off and don't come on this forum. Musharraf is a civilian president and Pakistan is being run by civilian elected government. Why do you have to drag Pak fauj in this?

And if she indeed was a terrorist or a supporter then there must be some evidence against here and in that case I don't give a crap as to what happens to her.

Brother how can anyone take your post seriously when your hurl abuses without any provocation ?  We are proud of our Pak Fauj but we should not use their pure name for our own political purposes. Why use their name as a blackmailing battering ram rather then presenting coherent arguments and discussing topics in a civilized way.

[Pappu Paanwala]

this woman is a terrorist,

Not really Bro. She might be but she might not. If you believe everything the Pakistani Foreign Office or the American Government tells you then that is another matter. She might be a terrorist, in which case she should be prosecuted and punished. But that is not what we are protesting. I am quiet sure that you are aware of this, then why deliberately try to lead the discussion by posting a false comment ? We are protesting against the violation of basic human rights which even criminals are entitled too. The process of due right, the right to have an attorney and the right for a trial. We are protesting against torture and the abduction of the three kids.

if you disagree then you can go to the USA and ask for her back, if you have the balls.

Brother we have written letters, emails and will even participate in any peaceful protests if organized. Rest assured we will miss our castrated friends over there.

[dargay]

how do you know she was tortured ? She is getting her rights and trial, in which we will see the evidence of her being a terrorist. There is a reason she is being targetted while her sister walks free.

However you are correct that your castrated friends will not show up at any pro-terrorist meeting.

[Tropicana]

how do you know she was tortured ? She is getting her rights and trial, in which we will see the evidence of her being a terrorist. There is a reason she is being targetted while her sister walks free.

However you are correct that your castrated friends will not show up at any pro-terrorist meeting.

I know you are grateful to the US for providing you a visa/passport but you dont really have to sound like Bill O Reilly, do you ?  You will remain a "terrorist Pakistani" in neocons eyes even though you may try your best to convince them that only someone with a beard/Hijab is a terrorist

[Ababeel]

There seems to be a competition going on between Pakistani leaders about Bai-Ghairti. Zardari yea Nawaz Sharif main se jub koi jeetney lagta hai Musharraf comes and says, " main bhi to hoon".

Righteous leadership is need of hour. Unfortunately for Pakistan current leadership (Mush, Zardari, NS, Fazlu, Altaf, etc) are bunch of blind idiots. I see supporters of these leaders basically arguing for less blind to lead Pakistan amongst these blind idiots. Competition is not who is best for Pakistan, as none of them are best for Pakistan. I am fed up with Mush and these democratic leadership.

[pakforever]

As I have said before, one should never expect US to be angels......what is more saddening their torture is the fact that some officers in Pakistan kidnapped her and handed her over to the US, and threatened her mother against speaking on the case.............

I agree.  The most worrisome part of all of this is the behavior of the Pakistani officers.  You have to safeguard the rights of your citizens first and foremost and ensure that they are going to be treated fairly with "due process."

[Jahan]

Complicated : You are on a respected forum, you don't have to indulge in abusive literature, especially when you are talking about our President.

Your president, bhai-saahib. Not mine.

No man who sells my sisters in religion and country is my leader.

It shows a lot about you that you would consider him your "President" after seeing the pictures of Dr Siddiqui. In fact, it's downright sick. I used to have respect for you. A lot of members will lose that respect after you still continue to call him your "President" after what he has done to this woman.

Khanzeer ka bacha - mera koi chacha hai keh us ki izzat karoon?

[Jahan]

Consitution of Pakistan is man made, so many revisions and updates .. makes you wonder what eally is the constition .. in fact the main guy who made the actually made the full constitution was a Civilian Miliitary dictator !

The COUNTRY was made by lawyers. What's your point?

You seem to forget the fact that in difficult times many wrong things happen .. You seem to forget that Taleban were removed during the time of Gen. Musharaff .. they were carpet bombed in Afghanistan with daisy cutters .. including the Taleban there were kids, cattles & trees which were ripped and decimated ! Now .. suppose that too was a major sin of Gen. Musharaff !

While my own head hangs in shame for the ordeal which my Sister had to go through but what about the people for whom she has suffered, what did they do about it ! HOw much hue & cry have they done on her front while she was in the illegal confinement !

You're justifying

Don't justify. Don't justify.

[Saqr]

how do you know she was tortured ? She is getting her rights and trial, in which we will see the evidence of her being a terrorist. There is a reason she is being targetted while her sister walks free.

However you are correct that your castrated friends will not show up at any pro-terrorist meeting.

Was she tried in Geneva with those Bosnia war criminals?  NO.  Was she tried in Pakistan?  NO.  Known rapists and war criminals get off with easier treatment...she was a woman accused of being an Al Qaeda suspect, and we didn't even know she was arrested till now.  She was kidnapped and 'tried' under a classified court-martial tribunal in some secret facility with the prosecutors known for torture, rape and extra-judicial treatment.  

Chances are...dealing with an entity known for some very bloody crimes in the past...Fourth World mentality of many locals...the facts that women are tied with children for top victims of the worst in war crimes....how can you say she was 'not' raped?  The Americans were able to touch up-feel-up grown hairy men, a woman in her 30s is going to be an exception...?...especially in a place like Northern Alliance governed Afghanistan??  

Guarantee you if Pakistanis in Pakistan support this kind of action suspects, then a good number of Pakistanis in the West - even those who support Musharraf and the GWOT - are screwed.  

Though the blame doesn't only belong to the government of then and today, but also the so-called pro-judiciary lawyer (aka fraud) groups, the advocates of human rights - i.e. Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir, etc - and many key Pakistani figures.

[Jahan]

Wohi please answer my question. What has your Ganja done after being in power for a good 4 months now?? Did he even raise the issue of Dr. Aafia even once?? For him it is more important that Kaana Dajjal Ifti Ch. (his stooge) is placed in the supreme court and he can begin his corruption rampage.

Only stooge with the courage to ask for the missing people to be produced in Court.

Please answer my question Zarrar: what has your President done for Afia Siddiqui?

NS isn't even an elected respresentative. Doesn't Musharraf have a stronger duty to seek justice for her?

[Jahan]

Why are people side-tracking this issue?

I don't understand.

Why is it being taken along the lines of "what has NS done?" Or "Zardari would do the same?" Or "terrible things happen in difficult times" (isn't that the biggest let-out clause ever?). I don't understand.

Have any of the die-hard Musharraf supporters catagorically condemned the puppet for his crime? I've not seen anything. It's been either "oh what a terrible thing," "the poor woman" but never "Musharraf did wrong in pursuing such a policy - he committed a crime, treason, murder, kidnap (& etc)..."

For doing such a thing to one woman, he deserves the harshest death penalty. Now mulitply that by a factor of hundreds and thousands...

[Oracle]

situation is very simple.

FBI has bothered to change the picture saying "in custody" but website still says "current whereabouts are unknown"

http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/siddiqui.htm


FBI knows they are lying about the details of When they got Aafia, where was she for last 4 years, and where her kids are, and who handed over her to them. and how she was shot at or whom all she shot at. and how she reduced to 90 lb zombie. how much amount was payed on her capture and which account was it transfered to.

Judge knows FBI is lying.
American public knows they both judge and FBI knows they are lying.
Pakistanies know that Americans, Judge, and FBI knows they re lying.
our president knows that pakistanies, american public, judge, FBI all know every line of detail is a lie.

Musharaf has moral duty to release the details of hand over place, and authority, and reward money recieved, and account transfered to, with time stamp on it.

it is possible that the account belongs to "Bilal Musharaf". then he will decide "Sab say pehlay baap", in vast interest of family. will he?

[Pappu Paanwala]

how do you know she was tortured ? She is getting her rights and trial, in which we will see the evidence of her being a terrorist. There is a reason she is being targetted while her sister walks free.

However you are correct that your castrated friends will not show up at any pro-terrorist meeting.

I said a peaceful protest which you have incorrectly labeled as a pro-terrorist meeting. The constitution of the USA guarantees the right to peaceful protest against government excesses. Please dont distort facts to justify your misplaced opinions. The term "targeting" is another lie trying to be mascaraed in the clothes of truth. Punishment has to be in proportion to the crime or anarchy and rebellion will result. Conspiracy to commit terrorism cannot be punished with rape, abuse and denial of due process. A reading of Machiavelli's Crime and Punishment is definitely a must here. People who condone state excesses and oppression are the worst terrorists of all.

[demonslayer]

Now the main priority is to get our sister back from HELL. The Pakistani govt have to demand her release through diplomatic means. President Musharraf now should ask US President Bush to release her immediately. If all this fails than Pakistan should spare no expense to hire the best defense team of lawyers for her. It is just baseless accusations and they will not have any concrete proof against her as it is not the truth. Meanwhile all Pakistani people should hold peaceful rallies outside the Presidency and the PM house demanding the govt to take immediate action. Everyone outside Pakistan should send their concerns to the Pakistan embassies to pressurize the govt.

[dargay]

I said a peaceful protest which you have incorrectly labeled as a pro-terrorist meeting. The constitution of the USA guarantees the right to peaceful protest against government excesses. Please dont distort facts to justify your misplaced opinions. The term "targeting" is another lie trying to be mascaraed in the clothes of truth. Punishment has to be in proportion to the crime or anarchy and rebellion will result. Conspiracy to commit terrorism cannot be punished with rape, abuse and denial of due process. A reading of Machiavelli's Crime and Punishment is definitely a must here. People who condone state excesses and oppression are the worst terrorists of all.

from where are you getting these charges of rape, abuse and denial of process? from thin air?

[Pappu Paanwala]

Though the blame doesn't only belong to the government of then and today, but also the so-called pro-judiciary lawyer (aka fraud) groups, the advocates of human rights - i.e. Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir, etc - and many key Pakistani figures.

Imran Khan was the one who arranged the press conference for Yvonne Ridley, the British Journalist.

[Oracle]

Imran Khan was the one who arranged the press conference for Yvonne Ridley, the British Journalist.

Imran...............now be ready for some Anjahani Sita White coverage in US, British and Pakistani press.


ok some details for interested.
The "gray lady of Bagram"
On July 7, 2008 the Daily Times of Pakistan quoted Briish journalist Yvonne Ridley that a Pakistani woman had been held in solitary confinement, for years, in the Bagram "Theater internment facility" NickNamed "Bagram Collection point", .Her identity remains unconfirmed. She has been nicknamed the "gray lady of Bagram". However Ridley speculates that she is Aafia Siddiqui.
clicke here to feel the location
Moazzam Begg and several other former captives have reported that a female prisoner, prisoner 650, was held in Bagram.According to The Daily Times and Adnkronos news service the former captives report she has lost her sanity, and cries all the time.

Iqbal Jaafree, a Pakistani lawyer, petitioned a Pakistani court for a hearing to determine Siddiqui's location.

still inocent FBI doesn't know, where was Aafia for 4 years.

Yazeeds of every time have only one option (that works anyway), lie, and avoid responsibility, and stick to it. majority of people will forget after some time. demonize the rest as "conspiracy theorists" or traitors.

[pakforever]

Now the main priority is to get our sister back from HELL. The Pakistani govt have to demand her release through diplomatic means. President Musharraf now should ask US President Bush to release her immediately. If all this fails than Pakistan should spare no expense to hire the best defense team of lawyers for her. It is just baseless accusations and they will not have any concrete proof against her as it is not the truth. Meanwhile all Pakistani people should hold peaceful rallies outside the Presidency and the PM house demanding the govt to take immediate action. Everyone outside Pakistan should send their concerns to the Pakistan embassies to pressurize the govt.

I agree what happened to her was very wrong.  It pains me as a Pakistani and a muslim.  Further, the events that surrounded her capture and detention are a disgrace to the Government of Pakistan (GOP) because they allowed it to happen.  But, why do you think the Government of Pakistan would "care" enough to "fight" for her release now when the GOP are the ones who "gave" her to the U.S. anyway.  If they cared about her, they would not have given her so easily to the Americans.  The woman at the very least should have been extradited under proper protocols, but that didn't happen.   Instead, she was given to the FBI, and then allegedly "misplaced" by them, only to turn up recently in Afghanistan and allegedly she shot at a couple of Americans.  The whole story around her capture and detention sounds "shady."

The truth is that there is really nothing any of us can do now.  We all could contact the GOP day and night, but they really wouldn't care what we had to say.  The GOP only cares about themselves and settling political scores.  Governing the people and looking out for the interests of their citizens is not really a concern to them.  

And even if the GOP did care (which I don't think they do), they are not strong enough to do anything now.  Look at the situation Ms. Siddiqui is in.  
She is in American custody.  She is in the United States. And, she is charged with terrorism and links to Al Qaeda.  Her conviction is a mere formality in the American court system.  You almost have to prove yourself innocent when one is accused of ties to terrorism, and that's sad when you consider that much of the evidence against terrorist suspects is flimsy at best (oftentimes its "secret evidence" which the defense is not even allowed to know).

The only long-term solution to this is to make Pakistan a strong and respected country (particularly with regard to the economy).  And have a leadership in place, that does that "right" things and looks out for the people.  Sadly, we are 0 for 2, and thus, we could see more situations like Ms. Siddiqui's, unfortunately, in the future.

[Salim]

I read a story when I was a kid: A man learned that another country is very rich and people there are well fed. He decided to go. Before leaving for that country, he went to his teacher for advice. Teacher told him that he should not go there, as customs in that country is very weird and even though he might be better off financially, he could get into trouble. Man did not listen to his teacher and left.

Once he was walking on the road when King’s men came and told him that he is arrested. He protested and asked for reason? They told him that he would know when he would reach the court. In court, judge told him that country uses certain size hang noose, and custom of the country is that once a person got convicted and sentenced to death by hanging than whatever happens, someone has to get hanged, else country believes it would be bad for the country. That is why many people do not eat a lot and stay thin, so that they do not become victim of the custom. Unfortunately, this morning a man was convicted and sentenced to death by hanging. His neck was too thin so King’s men went out to find first person that can fit hanging noose. You were the first person with right size neck, so however unfortunate, according to our custom, you would get hanged. It was first time, the man remembered the advice of his teacher, but it was too late, as he got hanged.

We may not know or realise, but once a person take another country's nationality, same can happen to him/her. If a person is American and wanted by USA government, then America can extradite their national from any country they have extradition treaty and punish that person whatever way they like. [Pakistan has extradition treaty with USA since 1972]. We should also remember that even though Pakistan allows Pakistani national keeping another country's nationality, America does not allow that with every country. So, those who take American Nationality, they by doing so, lose Pakistan nationality.

It is unfortunate, that we Pakistani take foreign nationality, still expect to get treated as Pakistani by Pakistani government, even though Pakistan is obliged to follow international laws. Pakistani officials also have to do what Pakistan have to according to world laws and Pakistani laws. Pakistani national automatically denounce Pakistani nationality when they take nationality of another country that does not allow dual nationality with Pakistan, like USA and most of Europe. If they still keep Pakistani passport or do things as Pakistani national, they do it illegally ... breaking laws of USA as well as Pakistan, as legally they are no more Pakistani, though once they acquire POC, they might get some right in Pakistan similar to Pakistani national. We should remember that ‘Pakistan Origin Card’ itself means that holder of such card only has Pakistani origin and is not Pakistani national. Once a Pakistani national denounce Pakistani Nationality, they become a foreign national to Pakistan and fall into same category as any foreign national.

I know someone who married an American national and became American. Later he wanted to visit Pakistan, but Pakistan embassy declined to give him visa, though they gave his wife visa. [This happened in 1980, during Zia time, around 28 years ago]. I also know a lady who came to Pakistan and over stayed, so when she wanted to return, she got arrested at airport in Pakistan on overstaying charges.

The incidence that happened with Mr Aafia Siddiqui is really very unfortunate and very upsetting, but does the fault of her predicament lies with Pakistan government? I would like to know, what was the nationality of Mrs Aafia Siddiqui at the time of her getting arrested and handed over to USA? What I know is that, she was/is American, and if that is true than I could not blame Pakistani government for her predicaments, however gruesome.

[We should remember that even though USA tried their best, USA could not extradite Omar Sheikh, killer of journalist Pearl, because even though USA wanted to extradite him, Omar was not American national and that saved him].

[Pappu Paanwala]

schmuck

This topic is not about Imran Khan or any other politican. I was merely informing the poster about a fact. Kindly dont take out your personal frustrations with Imran Khan on this thread as it will only serve to divert from the issue at hand. I think we can rise above our personal likes and dislikes for once.

from where are you getting these charges of rape, abuse and denial of process? from thin air?

From Amnesty International, The Daily Times, the book Enemy Combatant: A British Muslim's Journey To Guantanamo and Back, the British Journalist Yvonne Ridley and mostly common sense.  You on the other hand are getting your information from the US government who is known for telling impeccable truths like the Tuskegee Experiment, the WMDs of Iraq and so on and so forth.

[saleemraja]

She wouldn't be able to tell one end of the gun from the other let alone be abe to fire it. The Kalashinov would be too heavy for her to lift as she is a petit woman. Would any woman sacrifice three children? I doubt it . We have heard plenty of cra*p from the Americans but this must surely beat every thing. This is equivalent to Abu Ghraib and an attack on our muslim values and an insult to all Pakistanis and must be avenged. Perpetrators must be brought to justice.

[Darwaish]

I read a story when I was a kid: A man learned that another country is very rich and people there are well fed. He decided to go. Before leaving for that country, he went to his teacher for advice. Teacher told him that he should not go there, as customs in that country is very funny and even though he might be better off financially, he could get into trouble. Man did not listen to his teacher and left.

Once he was walking on the road when King’s men came and told him that he is arrested. He protested and asked for reason? They told him that he would know when he would reach the court. In court, judge told him that country uses certain size hang noose, and custom of the country is that once a person got convicted and sentences to death by hanging than whatever happens, someone has to get hanged, else country believes it would be bad for the country. That is why many people do not eat a lot and stay thin, so that they do not become victim of the custom. Unfortunately, this morning a man was convicted and sentenced to death by hanging. His neck was too thin so King’s men went out to find first person that can fit hanging noose. You were the first person with right size neck, so however unfortunate, according to our custom, you would get hanged. It was first time, the man remembered the advice of his teacher, but it was too late, as he got hanged.

We may not know or realise, but once a person take another country's nationality, same can happen to him/her. If a person is American and wanted by USA government, then America can extradite their national from any country they have extradition treaty and punish that person whatever way they like. [Pakistan has extradition treaty with USA since 1972]. We should also remember that even though Pakistan allows Pakistani national keeping another country's nationality, America does not allow that with every country. So, those who take American Nationality, they by doing so, lose Pakistan nationality.

It is unfortunate, that we Pakistani take foreign nationality, still expect to get treated as Pakistani by Pakistani government, even though Pakistan is obliged to follow international laws. Pakistani officials also have to do what Pakistan have to according to world laws and Pakistani laws. Pakistani national automatically denounce Pakistani nationality when they take nationality of another country that does not allow dual nationality with Pakistan, like USA and most of Europe. If they still keep Pakistani passport or do things as Pakistani national, they do it illegally ... breaking laws of USA as well as Pakistan, as legally they are no more Pakistani, though once they acquire POC, they might get some right in Pakistan similar to Pakistani national. We should remember that ‘Pakistan Origin Card’ itself means that holder of such card only has Pakistani origin and is not Pakistani national. Once a Pakistani national denounce Pakistani Nationality, they become a foreign national to Pakistan and fall into same category as any foreign national.

I know someone who married an American national and became American. Later he wanted to visit Pakistan, but Pakistan embassy declined to give him visa, though they gave his wife visa. [This happened in 1980, during Zia time, around 28 years ago]. I also know a lady who came to Pakistan and over stayed, so when she wanted to return, she got arrested at airport in Pakistan on overstaying charges.

The incidence that happened with Mr Aafia Siddiqui is really very unfortunate and very upsetting, but does the fault of her predicament lies with Pakistan government? I would like to know, what was the nationality of Mrs Aafia Siddiqui at the time of her getting arrested and handed over to USA? What I know is that, she was/is American, and if that is true than I could not blame Pakistani government for her predicaments, however gruesome.

[We should remember that even though USA tried their best, USA could not extradite Omar Sheikh, killer of journalist Pearl, because even though USA wanted to extradite him, Omar was not American national and that saved him].

I have been an old reader of this forum who finally decided to register. I dont always agree with what you write but have always thought that you backed up your arguments with logic. This time I think your zeal to defend the Pakistani Government, or in this case, Musharraf, is misplaced. This is not a simple case of extradition where everyone has lost their bearings and is arguing for this criminal. Even extraditions have proper protocol where the rights of the prisoner are guaranteed. The country handing over the prisoner usually takes a few guarantees before the handing over. This was NOT an extradition but an illegal crime. One cannot hold a person in detention for 5 years without any charge. You cannot extradite a citizen without courts of the custodian country giving the clear signal if an appeal is filed. Extradition is not a hush hush process carried out in the middle of the night.

Your other assertion that she was an American Citizen thats why Pakistan had to do this is also misplaced. History tell us that Pakistani authorities have acted like this even before. How about Aimal Kasi who was a Pakistani Citizen yet was bundled up in the dark of the night. Nobody is arguing that they should be forgiven of their crimes. On the contrary we are arguing that criminals should not be punished by committing more crimes. The onus of responsibility in this case is clearly on the Pakistani government which acted irresponsibly and shamelessly to hand this poor women to these vultures. She was both a Pakistani Citizen and an American Citizen.

Pakistani Side.
"Dual nationality with the United States was carried out under section 14(3) of the Pakistan Citizenship Act of 1951 which says that Pakistani citizens who acquired US citizenship and subsequently ceased to be citizens of Pakistan under section 14(1) of the Act shall be considered citizens of Pakistan and they shall be deemed never to have lost their Pakistani citizenship. They have the same rights, privileges, and obligations they had before acquiring U.S. citizenship. (Source: Pakistan Citizenship Act of 1951)"

US Side

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

[Shoaib Pervez]

A US senator once said "Pakistanis will sell their mothers for a 5 dollar bill". I'm no longer mad at that senator. The great leaders of this nation proved him right.

[demonslayer]

I agree what happened to her was very wrong.  It pains me as a Pakistani and a muslim.  Further, the events that surrounded her capture and detention are a disgrace to the Government of Pakistan (GOP) because they allowed it to happen.  But, why do you think the Government of Pakistan would "care" enough to "fight" for her release now when the GOP are the ones who "gave" her to the U.S. anyway.  If they cared about her, they would not have given her so easily to the Americans.  The woman at the very least should have been extradited under proper protocols, but that didn't happen.   Instead, she was given to the FBI, and then allegedly "misplaced" by them, only to turn up recently in Afghanistan and allegedly she shot at a couple of Americans.  The whole story around her capture and detention sounds "shady."

The truth is that there is really nothing any of us can do now.  We all could contact the GOP day and night, but they really wouldn't care what we had to say.  The GOP only cares about themselves and settling political scores.  Governing the people and looking out for the interests of their citizens is not really a concern to them.  

And even if the GOP did care (which I don't think they do), they are not strong enough to do anything now.  Look at the situation Ms. Siddiqui is in.  
She is in American custody.  She is in the United States. And, she is charged with terrorism and links to Al Qaeda.  Her conviction is a mere formality in the American court system.  You almost have to prove yourself innocent when one is accused of ties to terrorism, and that's sad when you consider that much of the evidence against terrorist suspects is flimsy at best (oftentimes its "secret evidence" which the defense is not even allowed to know).

The only long-term solution to this is to make Pakistan a strong and respected country (particularly with regard to the economy).  And have a leadership in place, that does that "right" things and looks out for the people.  Sadly, we are 0 for 2, and thus, we could see more situations like Ms. Siddiqui's, unfortunately, in the future.

Well it is better to try to do something rather than just sit back and think that the GOP will never do anything.It is because of this that they do nothing.No pressure from the people. Obviously the previous GOP screwed up. They probably hoped that no one will find out about it. I dont care now who is in charge. The priority is to bring her back. Can't u see the ridiculous accusations against her so that they can keep her in custody.It is not about terrorism anymore here. They could not find anything on her and now as it is public, they laid false charges and whisked her away to USA.This means they are scared. They are in the wrong. The GOP now has to pressure the Bush govt. to release her. Or help her fight her case. But not to do anything will be shameful.

[Salim]

I have been an old reader of this forum who finally decided to register. I dont always agree with what you write but have always thought that you backed up your arguments with logic. This time I think your zeal to defend the Pakistani Government, or in this case, Musharraf, is misplaced. This is not a simple case of extradition where everyone has lost their bearings and is arguing for this criminal. Even extraditions have proper protocol where the rights of the prisoner are guaranteed. The country handing over the prisoner usually takes a few guarantees before the handing over. This was NOT an extradition but an illegal crime. One cannot hold a person in detention for 5 years without any charge. You cannot extradite a citizen without courts of the custodian country giving the clear signal if an appeal is filed. Extradition is not a hush hush process carried out in the middle of the night.

Your other assertion that she was an American Citizen thats why Pakistan had to do this is also misplaced. History tell us that Pakistani authorities have acted like this even before. How about Aimal Kasi who was a Pakistani Citizen yet was bundled up in the dark of the night. Nobody is arguing that they should be forgiven of their crimes. On the contrary we are arguing that criminals should not be punished by committing more crimes. The onus of responsibility in this case is clearly on the Pakistani government which acted irresponsibly and shamelessly to hand this poor women to these vultures. She was both a Pakistani Citizen and an American Citizen.

Pakistani Side.
"Dual nationality with the United States was carried out under section 14(3) of the Pakistan Citizenship Act of 1951 which says that Pakistani citizens who acquired US citizenship and subsequently ceased to be citizens of Pakistan under section 14(1) of the Act shall be considered citizens of Pakistan and they shall be deemed never to have lost their Pakistani citizenship. They have the same rights, privileges, and obligations they had before acquiring U.S. citizenship. (Source: Pakistan Citizenship Act of 1951)"

US Side

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

First of all, I have to clear that Musharraf government is not my government neither I have obligation to defend anyone. I supported Musharraf government and still support Musharraf, because I feel that his government was good for Pakistan (according to my opinion) and I believe that Musharraf was sincere to Pakistan throughout. As for Mrs Aafia Siddiqui case, I have all sympathy with her and wish she never gone through all the mishaps that happened to her, still I am mentioning what I believe is true, regardless of it is taken as hard truth or something anyone do not like. Actually, it is truth that helps others and they make their decisions in life, taking all things into account, without staying in darkness of what could happen. Some people might think that ignorance is bliss, but I think that it is best that one knows what the reasons for happenings are. I accept that I might get wrong but when I do, someone might point it out, so it gives me opportunity to learn too, and this is how I learn ... so, I do not mind, rather I appreciate, if I am wrong and someone points that out (with convincing explanation).

Now coming to Mrs Aafia Siddiqui case, it is wrong to say or write as if to imply that she was in Pakistani custody for 5 years. I believe she was in American custody throughout, after arrest. Second is that, I have never heard of dual nationality 1951 clause you mentioned. Nevertheless, even if there was such clause, I do not think that it is still valid today (though I might be wrong). I know many people who declined American nationality because they did not wanted to lose Pakistani nationality. I might be wrong, but I have the impression that when a person applies for American nationality, they may be asked to denounce their old nationality unless USA has no objection about it. If that is the case than a person applying for American nationality automatically loses Pakistani nationality.

According to my knowledge, an American national of Pakistani origin could not hold both Pakistani and American passport officially (and legally) neither they can get NICOP (National Identity Card of Overseas Pakistani) that Pakistanis who can keep dual nationality like British and Canadian, can get. Until recently, as far as I know, if American nationals (even of Pakistani origin) visited Pakistan, they had to get visa and had to register with police as Alien, though I am not sure if that is the case after they are given right to obtain 'POC' and are given some extra privileges, closer to being a Pakistani. As you are claiming that Mrs Aafia Siddiqui could be holding dual nationality than she might be travelling to Pakistan on Pakistani passport, and if that is the case than that is different matter, though I have the impression that she was travelling on American passport and was American national, not Pakistan national.

As for treatment of foreign national in any country, it is right of the host country to deport or handover that national to their own country anytime (regardless of extradition treaty or not), especially if that national is wanted for crime in their own country and their country requested for their return, unless it is asylum case. I do not know if Pakistan accepts Asylum application from American national neither I think that Mrs Aafia Siddiqui applied for Asylum in Pakistan (assuming that she was only American national). In Mrs Aafia Siddiqui case, as it seems to me, she was handed over to Americans as she was American national and USA wanted her for alleged crime in USA (fabricated or real). It is different matter and sad that instead of taking her to USA, Americans took her to Afghanistan, but in the end, Americans took her from Pakistan as their national, not Pakistani national, whereas Pakistan handed her over to American authority not as Pakistani national but American national.