125 replies to this topic

[ISI2003]

considering we are getting a lot of arms to upgrade all parts of our military, what is mushraff's 10 year plan as the ACM inted towards when responding to questions of if he was worried about indian military modernization

can anyone name all the equipement we are going to get over the next 10-15 years that is know and things like the j-10 we are more than likely going to get (nothing like the f-16 addtion which we dont know about)

Air Force
Navy
Army
Command and Control
Air Defense
Intelligence

[Web Master]

can anyone name all the equipement we are going to get over the next 10-15 years

Air Force
Navy
Army
Command and Control
Air Defense
Intelligence

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Air Force: Next 15 years a very rough idea

80 J-10
40 F-16 C (If Bush wins this election) if not 40 Mirage 2000-9
150 JF-17 (with SD-10 AAM)
100 F-7PG (Fully BVR)
2-3 Some type of In Flight Air Fueling System
and etc.............

[ISI2003]

thanks webmaster, btw have you checked out the sopc topic with all his posts, showing the capabilites of the j-10

what do you think of his posts?
check out the topic

[FASAL XJ]

what about the JF-17s and eyerie

[Magnus]

80 J-10

=======
PAF interested but not fully commited.

40 F-16 C (If Bush wins this election) if not 40 Mirage 2000-9

=======
Nopes! Same F-16s . Might go through upgrade .
Cant afford Mirage-2009 besides it was custom built for UAE.

150 JF-17 (with SD-10 AAM)

=======
More or less . Final figure though is 200 set by PAF .

100 F-7PG (Fully BVR)

=======
Not to be ordered more than already ordered .

2-3 Some type of In Flight Air Fueling System

=======

7 is my figure .

=======
Awacs both for airforce and navy . Talks on E-2c hawkeye are also underway as well as erieye from sweden . Pakistans seems to be interested in both just like india has shown interest in E-2c as well as phalcon.

Ft-2000

One of KS-1A , Spada-2000 or upgraded Hawk as medium defense missile.

Anza series 1/2/3 deployed.

Suitable ABM system deployed from US or China.

[ISI2003]

why would you say 80 j-10 when some sources claim it will be 100?
what kind of refueler do we plan to get
could we get c-130's and use them, or something more like A330 or Boeing 767 for a refueler

[Saqr]

Air Force

• Fighters
• 32-40 Mirage 2000-5 - OR - JAS-39 Gripen
• 18 to 28 used F-16A/B MLU + MLU Upgrade for 32 serving F-16s.
• 150-200 JF-17
• F-7PGs upgraded to carry BVR & Mirage ROSE upgraded to carry BVR & PGBs
• Trainers
• Possibly 20 FTC-2000/JL-9 for AJT & Fighter Conversion
• Around 43 K-8 to our 12 K-8 for 55 K-8 for IJT/BJT
• Support Aircraft
• 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
• 2-3 Air-to-Air Refueling A/C
• C-130 Upgrades
• V.I.P Aircraft
• Air Defence System
• FT-2000, HQ-9, KS-1A Long-Range SAMs
• Spada-2000, SD-10 Medium Range SAMs
• Crotale-4000, Anza-III Short Range SAMs
• 6 AN/TPS-77 and Chinese High-Level Radars
• Data-Linking Systems, Erieye Ground Stations, etc

[fiaz]

Air Force

• Fighters
  
• 70 F-16C/D Block-50 -OR- 60 JAS-39 Gripen -OR- 50 J-10 -OR- 40 Mirage 2000-5
  
• 18 to 28 used F-16A/B MLU + MLU Upgrade for 32 serving F-16s.
  
• 150-200 JF-17
  
• F-7PGs upgraded to carry BVR & Mirage ROSE upgraded to carry BVR & PGBs
  
• Trainers
  
• Possibly 20 FTC-2000/JL-9 for AJT & Fighter Conversion
  
• Around 43 K-8 to our 12 K-8 for 55 K-8 for IJT/BJT
  
• Support Aircraft
  
• 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
  
• 2-3 Air-to-Air Refueling A/C
  
• C-130 Upgrades
  
• V.I.P Aircraft
  
• Air Defence System
  
• FT-2000, HQ-9, KS-1A Long-Range SAMs
  
• Spada-2000, SD-10 Medium Range SAMs
  
• Crotale-4000, Anza-III Short Range SAMs
  
• 6 AN/TPS-77 and Chinese High-Level Radars
  
• Data-Linking Systems, Erieye Ground Stations, etc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This looks like an excellent (possible) line-up ! I would prefer the F-16 MLU and J-10's for good measure (ACM also hinted this in his recent interviews). Although if PAF doesn't get the additional F-16's with MLU and have to get a new aircraft like the Gripen or the Mirage 2000-5 then PAF is unlikely to go for the J-10's also.

:PakistanFlag:

[ISI2003]

we should really try to get rafales, if we can get 70 f-16c/d then we wouldn't need anything other than them, but if we dont we should have 50 f-16mlu, 50 rafales, 200jf-17, and 80 rose mirages

the rest is good

my reasons for gettig the rafales is becuase:(this is if we only have 50 f-16mlu)

we should get our f-16'smlu and get the rafale beacuase it has
1. range
2. little politics
3. infastructure going to be build, why not for one plane rahter than two (j-10 and some other western plane)
4. getting matur tech rather than getting 250-300 unsure planes (jf-17/j-10) rather than just 200 jf-17, teething will be a major headsche
5. 11 hardpoints, more than 7 of gripen
6. capability to strike hard into india unlike any other western plane
7. only fighter really designed and capable to defeat the su-30mki, other than f-16 possibly

and something i would like to ad about the plane that makes it what we should get:

it has technolgy like active cancellation that along side of its low rcs, means if a fighter locks on, it will be cancelled

from this tech we can have this plane, even 50 in number, means we woulnt have to get the j-13 until it was fully export ready and then some because it would probably take china at least 15 years to get the electronics up to the rafales standard, not all the tech but the key techs like active cancellation, designed to fit the plane like a glove, every angle of the plane was designed for this in mind

[Saqr]

Navy

• Surface Combatants
• 4 F-22P Guided Missile Frigates
• 4 3000 Ton Guided Missile Frigates (I think Type-054A)
• ??MRTP-33 Fast Attack Stealth Boats
• ??Jalalat Class Fast Attack Missile Boats
• ??Slightly Larger Fast Attack Missile Boats
• Submerged Combatants
• 4 New Submarines (Scorpene OR Agosta-90B)
• Support & Patrol Surface Ships
• ??Larkana Large Patrol Boats
• ??Tankers
• ??Mine Hunters
• ??Mine Layers
• Aviation
• ??Z-9C Helicopters
• ??E-2C Hawkeye-2000?
• 8-10 P-3C Orion

[Asim Aquil]

Btw has this plan been made public? All they said was there IS a plan. They should give us a brief outline about what they're planning to do.

[PS:Annonymous]

Yaar it is not the Question that if get this stuff or not.

the real Question is how we must make our economy strong.

we must not put lots of money in defence toys right away.

we have nukes and they assure that no one will find it an adventure to start a war with us anytime soon.

we must do the slow and continues investment in defence but at the same time we should work on economy.

[noxiouspython]

:ChinaFlag: I dont think we can fully have a plan that is accepted and alll......but as to what i heard and read on this forum is the govt plan for the aquisition of 100 j 10....
Talks goin on :bounce: :bounce: :PakistanFlag:

[Saqr]

Btw has this plan been made public? All they said was there IS a plan. They should give us a brief outline about what they're planning to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The naval list has been given in the Janes Article about PN, its somewhere on this forum.

[Saqr]

Army

• Tanks
• ?? MBT-2000 Al Khalid Tanks
• ?? Al Zarrar T-59 Upgrade Tanks
• Upgrading 1000 T-85IIAP, T-80UD, etc
• APCs/IFVs/Post Carrier Units
• ?? Talha APC
• ?? Saad APC
• ?? Humza IFV
• ?? Sakb Post Carrier
• ?? Ukrainian IFV/APCs?
• ?? Mohafiz LAPC
• ?? Ukrainian Hummers
• Aviation
• ?? AH-1F Cobra Attack Helicopter
• ?? Bell-419EP Huey Transport Helicopter
• ?? UH-1H Iroquios Transport Helicopter
• ?? Mi-17 Transport Helicopters
• ?? Z-9 Helicopters?

[Dizasta]

Pakistan Air Force:

190 JAS-39 Gripens (Cs/Ds)
90 RF-1 Rafales (As/Bs/Ms)
70 M-2K5s (Cs/Ds)
130 F-16 Vipers (Cs/As/Bs/Ds)
150 JF-17 Thunders (As/Bs)
50 M-346 Aermacchi
30 K-8 Karakorams
7 Eyries
9 Airtankers

AIM-120 AMRAAMs
AIM-9x SIDEWINDERs
SD-10
GBUs
LGBs
HARMs
H-4s
H-2s
Exocets


Okay admitted that everyone would say that this list is unrealistic. But the point in posting such a list is to identify that long gone are the days that PAF could've off set the balance with bhindis by qualitative edge. We need excellent advance jet trainers, advance airsuperiority fighters & advance surface-to-air missile/air defence system.

Air superiority fighters could only make a difference in this over blown bhindi numerical superiority by pitching enough fighters in numbers that could match the enemy. Only under such circumstances would the qualitative edge rule the roost over Pakistani skies & keep those bhindis wetting their pants!!!
44 Rafales would be nothing to fight with against 190-Flankers+175-Mirage2Ks+110-Jaguars+84-Harriers+90-Fulcrums. Niether would 60-odd Gripens.

The answer is to fight fire with fire. The only way to shut these bhindis whore #### is by PAF bulking its muscles in numbers, as well as the quality of the fighters in its line up!!!!!!! :PakistanFlag:

[Saqr]

This is my personal on how the PAF may look like;

• 32-40 Mirage 2000-5 OR JAS-39 Gripen (1.6bn USD to 2.4bn USD spent)
• 18-28 used F-16A/B + MLU for 32 serving F-16s (500mn USD to 1bn USD spent)
• 150-200 JF-17 (3bn to 4bn USD spent)
• 100 Mirage ROSE (kept in service from 2004 to 2015)
• 70 F-7PG (kept in service from 2004 to 2017)
• 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C (delivered from 2006 to 2017)
• 3 Saab-2000 V.I.P

[Web Master]

[*]100 Mirage ROSE (kept in service from 2004 to 2015)

i dont know if its a good idea to keep them till 2015...........will the air frame be able to take that much? o think rose should be replaced no later than 2010

Edited by Web Master, 03 October 2004 - 01:25 AM.

[Saqr]

i dont know if its a good idea to keep them till 2015...........will the air frame be able to take that much? o think rose should be replaced no later than 2010

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if we can start adding more numbers of Gripens or Mirage 2000-5s from 2010, which I doubt, I think the Mirage ROSE should be kept.

[Web Master]

Well, if we can start adding more numbers of Gripens or Mirage 2000-5s from 2010, which I doubt, I think the Mirage ROSE should be kept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

true but what r the chances....so far all we see r talks about F-16, Mirage 2000-5 Rafale etc

I think Pak should opt for J-10 as a stop gap fighter till we can get some westren plane

[Saqr]

true but what r the chances....so far all we see r talks about F-16, Mirage 2000-5 Rafale etc

I think Pak should opt for J-10 as a stop gap fighter till we can get some westren plane 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We should spend as little money as required, if its J-10, lets stick with it and JF-17 until we get JXX and a UCAV. If its Gripen, same thing stick with it and JF-17 until JXX. IF we can't secure JXX by 2020, then we should go for 32 Rafales in 2015, assuming we have the money then.

[_killuminati_]

Yaar it is not the Question that if get this stuff or not.

the real Question is how we must make our economy strong.

we must not put lots of money in defence toys right away.

we have nukes and they assure that no one will find it an adventure to start a war with us anytime soon.

we must do the slow and continues investment in defence but at the same time we should work on economy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly.
We should induct around 150-200 Jf-17's and around 100-150 J-10's. Keep the rest of the fleet as it is, or give the F-16's the MLU upgrade.
We should concentrate on our economy for a few years (atleast 6 years). Wait till the GDP is around 130-150 Billion dollars, and the increase the defence budget (mainly the airforce budget), and then buy a decent amount of high-tech Western Aircrafts such as Rafale. By that time (6-10yrs later), Rafale may become available to us, and we will have enough money to buy such an aircraft in large quantities.

I think that this is best for Pakistan. What do u guys think?

Also, can anyone please give me the estimate cost for 150-200 Jf-17's and 100-150 J-10's? Thanx.

[Web Master]

Exactly.
We should induct around 150-200 Jf-17's and around 100-150 J-10's.  Keep the rest of the fleet as it is, or give the F-16's the MLU upgrade. 
We should concentrate on our economy for a few years (atleast 6 years).  Wait till the GDP is around 130-150 Billion dollars, and the increase the defence budget (mainly the airforce budget), and then buy a decent amount of high-tech Western Aircrafts such as Rafale.  By that time (6-10yrs later), Rafale may become available to us, and we will have enough money to buy such an aircraft in large quantities.

I think that this is best for Pakistan.  What do u guys think?

Also, can anyone please give me the estimate cost for 150-200 Jf-17's and 100-150 J-10's? Thanx.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Samid,

so in ur view 2015 should look how.......care to give us some numbers?

[_killuminati_]

Samid,

so in ur view 2015 should look how.......care to give us some numbers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know the exact numbers, but we should have atleast 150 Jf-17's, 100 J-10's, and the F-16s upgraded to MLU.

All I am saying is that we should concentrate on the economy more for a few years, and then build a strong force.

[Malikman]

I think we can all agree that Pakistan is now concentrating more on the economy than anything else. With a more stable and solid economy we will see more funds allocated to the public and also to the arm forces. Eventually, arm forces will be modernised and become leathal once again.

Therefore, keeping a timeline of 2015 may be reasonable for us all to access what will be in line then. Of course it will still depend on how well we have progressed in the economy now.

In another 10 years time, anything can happen.

[PakShaheen]

Priorities should be like this

1-Air Force + Air defence

2-Navy
+
Intelligence

3-Army

But all the moderanization work will be done according to the doctrine of PAF (Pakistan Armed Forces... )

From the 1947 till this date PAF have a defensive Doctrine...But with growing ecnomic conditions in Pakistan we should switched to ACTIVE DEFENCE if not OFFENSIVE DEFENCE....

But it should go side by side with ecnomic growth..and our prime target must be to gain self reliance in defence industry....

As for what will/should be acquired I think it all depend upon our military plans and missions....

[Saqr]

Pakistan will be spending over 25bn US Dollars in modernizing the Pakistan Armed Forces. The country doesn't have that kind of money to spend in such a short period of time, meaning the modernization will go beyond 2015, and the money spent will be paid for well beyond that. Considering that, it also takes time to actually produce and commission those weapons into the forces. Its gonna take its time, and the economy still needs to improve, we need to find ways of allocating money faster so we don't lose good defence deals.

1) The first order priority should be the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). First and foremost they should get like 4bn USD for 200 JF-17s and 1.7bn USD for 7 Erieye Saab-2000 AEW&C, the two most important things required. In addition to that, acquire like 40 or 60 new fighter jets, thus Mirage 2000-5 or J-10, which would cost roughly 2.3bn USD. However inducting new fighters (especially two new ones, JF-17 & J-10) takes a lot of time and funds, which would make the PAF weak, thats why we need those 18 used MLU F-16s to provide cover alongside the 32 we already have. In addition to that, the PAF should have like 3 Air-to-Air Refueling planes, to be used for Maritime Operations, as well as longer Air Defence flights. We need to modernize the Air Defence System as well, its gonna cost like 2-3bn USD.

The below is what I think the PAF will look like by 2020;

• 40 Mirage 2000-5Mk2s OR 40 J-10s
• 50 F-16AM/BM MLU
• 200 JF-17
• 60 F-7PG
• 25 K-8 AJT
• 55 K-8 IJT & BJT
• 3 Air-to-Air Refueling Planes
• 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C

2) Second order priority should be the Pakistan Navy (PN). They need the 750mn USD for their 4 F-22P Guided Missile Frigates, which would be delivered over like 13 years. In addition to that the Pakistan Navy needs like 18 Z-9 Naval Helicopters for Anti-Ship, Anti-Submarine, S&R, and Transport replacing our Seakings, Lynx, and Allouettes, in addition to that 12 P-3Cs. The PN should minimize the numbers of aviation weapons its flying, to reduce overall logistical costs. Those 3 Agosta-90Bs should be upgraded, and able to carry a variety of torpedos and anti-ship missiles. Then there are reports by JANES that the PN is looking for 4 more frigates and 4 more submarines. Its very likely they'll stick to 4 more F-22Ps and 4 more Agosta-90Bs, so lets stick with that, that'll cost another 2bn USD.

The below is what I think the Pakistan Navy will look like by 2020+;

• 8 F-22P Guided Missile Frigates
• 7 Agosta-90B Attack Submarines
• 5 Mine Hunters
• 3 Mine Layers
• 2 Tankers
• 12 P-3C
• 18 Z-9 Helicopters

[ISI2003]

considering the deals the chinese have the french, it is possible the j-10 might get some rafale tech, like how the yuan has u212/214 tech

i have also realized how easy it is that indian intelligence could get f-16 codes ad radar info, and jam it, even new f-16 tech, leaks from the american air force and lockheed, uae technicians who could leak it, russian agents getting info from lockheed or usaf and giving it to india, or israel air force people

if the j-10 could be upgraded with french rafale(even downgraded versions) radar, avionics, engines (tech, the m-88-3, the key piece of tech china has even stated it wants)

and france is pushing for the ban to be lifted, and because it can sell whole pieces of equipement like fighters, or ships, it can sell the key systems, which china wants

china couldsecretly fund the development of the m-88 to have supercruise and have the tech passed on to them, just like the uae's funding of the block 60 tech and then buying the planes with their codes

if this happens which i suspect will happen becuase both sides want to exhange chinese money for french tech and france isn't really getting a sale, making it desperate to keep the rafale program alive, as well as france getting pissed ff that what it can and cant do from other nations which are much weaker than it economically, and it wanting to keep it's economic power, considering after a while r&d might start t lose momentum and jhobs as well as other major military industries, it coulds sell the tech to china

so considering this watching the j-10's developement over the next 3-4 years duriung its final testing and development phase for the first operational models for export to us (the same as the chiese planes), if we can get a western standard radar from china and avionics, then it would be perfect for us

that way, our only foriegn plane would be the f-16's making the threat of sanctions less dangerous if war was inposed on us or we had to wage war ourselves
-------------------
on the issue of the large sums of money to get new equipement, it is a need we have been putting off, but in our case it has been a good idea to put it off, as i see it the tech we could have gotten was really poor compared to what we can get now from more willing sources like china and america, 10-15 years ago we were under sanctions and tech wasn't going to come

now it is and now we see the threat, also other nations who were unwilling or lacked the tech now with their down sizing industries

btw we should get the 525 type 054 ships considering it more stelthier capablities, and considering it will probably be the main type in a the future plan, many weaons will be built to its size, if we have the smaller f-22p(approx 20%) smaller, it might not be large enough to carry te large weapons in which direction china will probably go, something like a downsized copy of the sunburn for the 525, but might be to large for the f-22p

one the sub issue it is increse capabilites for the least amount of funds spend relatively, maximum return, we need a sub that can do missions better, or giving us new capabilites that make missiopns easier to accomplish

that is why we should also considering the new yuan type if it has the capablity to launch cruise missiles with nuke warheads, or launch new torpedo the chinese have developed, as china become more capble and its tech could reach the level of western standards, the yuan become a realisitc possiblity, not yet but might be in the next 5 years, although china will need to shore up their numbers, so it all depends on how th enext 4-5 years pan out in the PLA Navy

[_killuminati_]

Can't we make spares ourselves? or Can't China make spares for the F-16's?

[Web Master]

Can't we make spares ourselves? or Can't China make spares for the F-16's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PAF was making most of spares (with help of China and local resources) to keep F-16s running before 2003 when we had no access to US spares.

The reason I support F-16 is we have full infrastructure and training for it. Also our eastern neighbor had never operated an F-16 before so there skill level when it comes to F-16 is very low.

I also support J-10 because its very close to F-16 we will have no problem in modifying or upgrading our existing infrastructure to fulfill J-10 requirements

[Saqr]

Transition from one backbone to another takes time and funds. The PAF will be weak within that time period when its changing its core from F-7 to JF-17, thats why we need F-16s to fill in the gaps.

[FASAL XJ]

i have my doubts about china providing the PAF with J-10s, The production rate of this fighter is too low(50 per year), and china hasnt even talked about exporting this fighter.

[Malikman]

i have my doubts about china providing the PAF with J-10s, The production rate of this fighter is too low(50 per year), and china hasnt even talked about exporting this fighter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The ACM has already stated that the J-10's are available to Pak. There is an understanding b/w them that if required Pak can get their hands on the J-10. However that will be our last option..

as obvious.

[Oqaab]

Air Force: Next 15 years a very rough idea

80 J-10
40 F-16 C (If Bush wins this election) if not 40 Mirage 2000-9
150 JF-17 (with SD-10 AAM)
100 F-7PG (Fully BVR)
2-3 Some type of In Flight Air Fueling System
and etc.............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where are the Mirages ?

~120 Mirages (ROSE I/II/III)

==========

Here is my opinion.

40 J-10 (40 million USD) 1.6 billion OR Mirage 2000-5 = 2 billion
43 F-16s (18 more = 360 million)
100 F-7PGs
40 F-7P
150 JF-17s
120 ROSE Mirages
7 Erieye AWACS planes

No Air-to-air refueling systems unless naval version of JF-17 rolls out.

Edited by Oqaab, 13 October 2004 - 03:53 AM.

[Saqr]

40 J-10 (40 million USD) 1.6 billion OR Mirage 2000-5 = 2 billion
43 F-16s (18 more = 360 million)
100 F-7PGs
40 F-7P
150 JF-17s
120 ROSE Mirages
7 Erieye AWACS planes

You almost stole my list :laugh: j/k

[FASAL XJ]

The ACM has already stated that the J-10's are available to Pak. There is an understanding b/w them that if required Pak can get their hands on the J-10. However that will be our last option..

as obvious

the ACM has said this, but the chinese have not made an official statement on this issue. BTW th J-10 will be powered by a russian engine which raises even more eye brows, as far as sales r concerned.

[Web Master]

guys what do u think about mid air fueling systems?

I thin PAF needs atleast 3-4 of these by 2010 any comments

[ISI2003]

webby, mission oriented
under what circumstances would refuelers be needed

maintaining longer patrols, but eventually have better servillance to not waste fighters fuel and potiential in defensive or offensive combat

i readf some where of 4 key area of air combat, the first i survillance, and now with possible 7 erieye on the way we can keep our f-16 as fighters and not mini awacs for other planes, and send fighters up agianst real threats

in war time with bases bombed, refuelers could provide fuel to a gruop of fighter who see a target that with the passage of time will disappear and become a lost opporunity

[Oqaab]

guys what do u think about mid air fueling systems?

I thin PAF needs atleast 3-4 of these by 2010 any comments

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Ive said before, "No Air-to-air refueling systems unless naval version of JF-17 rolls out."

i.e not before 2012.

[Saqr]

As Ive said before, "No Air-to-air refueling systems unless naval version of JF-17 rolls out."

i.e not before 2012

Even then we'd still need to train on it and adapt to it.