New Block50/52 F-16's: All Discussions Here Options

[sfhussain]

Pakistan plans to buy 70 latest F-16s

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=43959

Press Trust Of India
Posted online: Monday, March 28, 2005 at 1411 hours IST
Updated: Monday, March 28, 2005 at 1736 hours IST

Islamabad, March 28: Pakistan has hinted that it plans to buy from the US about 70 F-16s of the latest variety costing USD 3 billion. A team of American defence experts is expected to be in Islamabad shortly to discuss the modalities of the sale

The country will be eyeing for the latest block 50/52C and D Type models of the F-16s costing about USD 2.4 to 2.8 billion, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief Air Marshal Kaleem Sadat said.

Each of the latest F-16s were expected to cost around USD 35-40 million.

Unofficial estimates based on previous fleet requirements of the PAF put the figure close to 70 planes, daily 'Dawn' quoted PAF officials as saying.

Sadat said Pakistan might go for fourth generation fighter aircraft to meet with the country's defence requirements. "We got only an intimation that US President Bush had asked Congress to release Pakistan F-16s. We will get F-16 CNDS (block 50/52)," he added.

He said the number of the aircraft, "depended on as much as we needed".

Pakistan is playing an active role with the US in the war against terrorism and that was why the US government has agreed to give us the aircraft."

US ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker said an American officials team would be in Islamabad shortly to hold talks with Pakistani officials to finalise modalities of the sale of the F-16 aircraft as President Bush has cleared the legal and administrative hurdles by formally lifting the ban on sale of modern jet fighter.

"President Bush has granted special permission for this purpose. The mode of the payment, avionics and other systems to be fitted in the planes would also be determined after discussion by experts of the two countries".

Crocker was quoted as saying in local daily The News. "Since the planes are to be manufactured afresh, I cannot give a timeframe for the start of supply," he said.

He said there was no ceiling on Pakistan buying the F-16s even though officials in Washington had initially said Islamabad would be given 24 F-16s, adding Pakistan is free to decide the numbers. Islamabad could also use the USD 3 billion assistance announced by Bush in 2002 half which was committed for economic and social sector, Crocker said. Asked about US offering India F-18s, Sadat said, "we have to see our pocket and our needs before getting any aircraft. Prices of aircraft vary from model to model and aircraft to aircraft and getting an aircraft is based on the fact how much and what type of aircraft our security requires."

Referring to India's reaction to delivery of these aircraft to Pakistan, he said this was a usual response adding, "every country enjoys all rights to get what it deems fit for its security".

To question whether F-16s sale will have any impact on the peace process he said the deal would not hamper the ongoing dialogue. To a question about PAF plans to buy Swedish made Gripen planes he said no deal could be finalised overnight.

When asked whether the US would provide Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) missiles with F-16s, Sadat said it was too early to comment that these planes were equipped with the BVR missiles or not. "Till now we have no information about the avionics and weaponry installed in these fighters. At present, maneuverability of fighter aircraft does not matter much. What matters is the range of radar system, avionics and weaponry of the aircraft," Sadat said.

About compatibility of F-16s with the Swedish Erieye aircraft, which the Pakistan Air force plans to get, Pakistan Air force chief said both were not compatible with each other. He, however, said they could be made compatible with each other by making software and PAF will improvise and make Erieye platforms compatible to F-16 as well as majority of other combat platform

[sfhussain]

Decision to sell Pakistan F-16s saves 5,000 US jobs: Report

http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/f...llnews&id=90791

[World News] Washington, Mar 26 : The US Administration's decision to sell F-16s to Pakistan has saved about 5,000 jobs in President George W Bush's home State, Texas, since makers of the fighter aircraft had been thiking about axing many staff till some time ago, reports said today.

Lockheed Martin Corp., the builder of the planes, had said it needed new orders for the jet before this fall, or it would have to take action to close the production line that employs about 5,000 workers in Fort Worth, Texas.

The decision to sell F-16s "is likely to be as warmly greeted in Fort Worth as it is in Karachi," the Washington Post said.

Lockheed, the nation's largest defence contractor, has produced more than 4,000 of the versatile F-16s since the late 1970s, nearly half of them for customers overseas. The Fort Worth plant delivered its last F-16 to the U.S. Air Force last month, acording to Lockheed Spokesman Tom Jurlowsky, who added that it is still building planes for the governments of Israel, Chile, Poland and the United Arab Emirates.

Lockheed and other global defence manufacturers, The Washington Post points out, depend on sales of sophisticated military weaponry to boost their profits. The company has sold F-16s to 24 countries and makes them overseas, too, in Europe, Turkey and South Korea.

The Fort Worth plant had about 5,800 workers in January 2004. By this January, it was down to about 5,000, and it was scheduled to be down to 4,000 by next January, according to Jurkowsky.

It takes about three years to build an F-16, he added, noting that the company has back orders for about 200 aircraft. "Right now, the last one would come off the line in 2008," he said. PTI

[dibba]

undefinedWhen asked whether the US would provide Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) missiles with F-16s, Sadat said it was too early to comment that these planes were equipped with the BVR missiles or not. "Till now we have no information about the avionics and weaponry installed in these fighters. At present, maneuverability of fighter aircraft does not matter much. What matters is the range of radar system, avionics and weaponry of the aircraft," Sadat said.

I find the above har to believe. How can Sadat not have information about the equipment installed on the fighters? it is absurd.

It would be really weired if the planes were delivred without BVR. In such a case I think the PAF should reject them even if they come free.

[Saqr]

I find the above har to believe. How can Sadat not have information about the equipment installed on the fighters? it is absurd

The technical negotiations haven't even started, use your common sence, all these years its all been political, until recently. It'll take atleast 3-4 months for the F-16 deal to be finalized, in the negotiations, weapons, avionics, infastructure, training, will be finalized

[F-104Starfighter]

how ironic is this...pakistan was among one of the first countries to order these planes and we will be the last country to get them....this great fighter has served many nations of the world and its era ends with PAF service.
:PakistanFlag:

[awais786]

:wtf1:

how ironic is this...pakistan was among one of the first countries to order these planes and we will be the last country to get them....this great fighter has served many nations of the world and its era ends with PAF service.
:PakistanFlag:
[right][snapback]608910[/snapback][/right]

wow so much thinking done here :LOLANI: :LOLANI: :LOLANI: :LOLANI: :W00T: :W00T: :wacko: :wacko: :tongue4:

[lil Paki]

how ironic is this...pakistan was among one of the first countries to order these planes and we will be the last country to get them....this great fighter has served many nations of the world and its era ends with PAF service.
:PakistanFlag:
[right][snapback]608910[/snapback][/right]

True, but now is the time to move foward and end this era.

[ISI2003]

WOW, expressindia is using rumour on the internet to base their estimates, because no one has official gave a final number

maybe expressindia is using PDF, lol, a weird thought, maybe our site might have a larger following

[JF-17]

A question!


cant F-16s have Canards?? for more mobility?

[Saqr]

A question!
cant F-16s have Canards?? for more mobility?
[right][snapback]609010[/snapback][/right]

No need.

[Amjad]

This does clears up that George W. Bush was a better choice for Pakistan compare to Bill Clinton. I am glad Pakistan supported Bush in the last US election. well done Pakistani lobby in US election. I don't think Clinton would ever of given F-16 to Pakistan, cause they are blindly pro india and anti pakistan cause of indian lobby

[Malikman]

A question!
cant F-16s have Canards?? for more mobility?
[right][snapback]609010[/snapback][/right]

as DF said, no need but let me add a little more to it.

f-16's, especially A-B's are one of the most maneourvable a/c in the world. they are tagged as the best dog fighter for some donkey years.

[Major Saab]

just wanted to tell ya all that congress is gonna stop the deal. A pro-indian lobyist will, pass a bill to comgress to block the deal unless pakistan hands over Khan.Which is never gonna happen.

[Wing_Man]

the thing is that pakistan is intrusted in getting the f-16 block 50/52 but according to different interviews on tv of president mussharaf pakistan is also intrested in getting another 4th generation fighter plane so as to fill the gap between the f16 and jf-17 which further means that in the comming future pakistan will be relying on three types of fighter jets
f-16 (multirole)
????(multirole) can be j-10, grippen as the president said on tv
jf-17 thunder
:2GUNS: :2GUNS: :2GUNS: :2GUNS:

[_killuminati_]

the thing is that pakistan is intrusted in getting the f-16 block 50/52 but according to different interviews on tv of president mussharaf pakistan is also intrested in getting another 4th generation fighter plane so as to fill the gap between the f16 and jf-17 which further means that in the comming future pakistan will be relying on three types of fighter jets
f-16 (multirole)
????(multirole) can be j-10, grippen as the president said on tv
jf-17 thunder
:2GUNS:  :2GUNS:  :2GUNS:  :2GUNS:
[right][snapback]610551[/snapback][/right]

They may decide to keep 50 F-16s and upgrade them to MLU standards as a stop-gap, and acquire 60-70 additional 4th Generation A/Cs. Or they might only buy these F-16s in large numbers.

Jf-17s are coming no matter what.

[Wing_Man]

They may decide to keep 50 F-16s and upgrade them to MLU standards as a stop-gap, and acquire 60-70 additional 4th Generation A/Cs.  Or they might only buy these F-16s in large numbers.

Jf-17s are coming no matter what.
[right][snapback]610557[/snapback][/right]

yes i agree to u samid what u just said but pakistan can not afford more than 111 f-16 because of the fact that the f-16 block 60 is the final version of the f-16 family also i studied an artical written by an indian analyst that now there is very less room for improvement in f-16 (correct me if am wrong). lockheed was closing the assembly line of f-16 if it would not had been for pakistan order of f-16.
pakistan also needs another multirole aircraft (griprn i agree to) besides jf-17 that could complement the f-16 block 50/52 and to counter indias
su30
mig 29
mig29 sk naval version
mirage 2000
126 planes that india still has to order

[Saqr]

True that the F-16 production line is closing, but the F-16C/D Block-52 is well on par with the Mirage 2000-5Mk2, and the Block-52 is more advanced than the IAF's MiG-29, Mirage 2000, well just about everything except Su-30MKI. However, this on paper, in real life, a F-16 armed with a BVR is as much of a threat to an MKI as an MKI is a threat to a F-16.

[Wing_Man]

simple calculation
pakistan has a total of 450 aircrafts out of which pakistan wishes to have
111 f-16 assumption based on previous cancelled orders of 1989
150 jf-17
that makes a total of 261 planes
and still 189 planes remain and also pakistan has made up a fifteen year defence program which i think will cater to these remaining 189 planes cause f-7 wont be operational uptill then.

[Saqr]

PAF has 350 operational fighter aircraft, the undelivered F-16s caused a major shortage in numbers. I'm pretty sure the number 350 will either stay the same or decrease in the future.

[Wing_Man]

take a look at this paragraph which i got from

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/27/index2.php


"India should not be overtly worried about the prospect of Pakistan acquiring the much-coveted F-16s, which have more symbolic and egoistic value since they are not a genuine fourth-generation fighter"

any comments?

[Saqr]

take a look at this paragraph which i got from

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/27/index2.php
"India should not be overtly worried about the prospect of Pakistan acquiring the much-coveted F-16s, which have more symbolic and egoistic value since they are not a genuine fourth-generation fighter"

any comments?
[right][snapback]610659[/snapback][/right]

We knew that, during the JF-17 Factory's inauguration, Musharraf said the PAF will be acquiring a 4th Gen aircraft in addition to F-16 and JF-17.

[firepilot]

take a look at this paragraph which i got from

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/27/index2.php
"India should not be overtly worried about the prospect of Pakistan acquiring the much-coveted F-16s, which have more symbolic and egoistic value since they are not a genuine fourth-generation fighter"

any comments?
[right][snapback]610659[/snapback][/right]

Not a genuine 4th gen fighter? Ha! guess the media anywhere is good at screwing up aviation articles.

F-16 was a 4th generation fighter when it was first produced. I would go as far as calling anything blk 60 and up (that UAE is getting) as being 4.5, since it really has a lot of the capabilities of the JSF F-35.

[awais786]

PAF has 350 operational fighter aircraft, the undelivered F-16s caused a major shortage in numbers.  I'm pretty sure the number 350 will either stay the same or decrease in the future.
[right][snapback]610654[/snapback][/right]

PAF had 410 combat planes in 1999 :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag:

[awais786]

just wanted to tell ya all that congress is gonna stop the deal. A pro-indian lobyist will, pass a bill to comgress to block the deal unless pakistan hands over Khan.Which is never gonna happen.
[right][snapback]610395[/snapback][/right]

nope,khan has nothing to do with this,indians know that they cant stop the deal even if they bring up khan,cause now in pakistan khan isnt the only one who knows how to make nukes
2.we have china to supply us with nuceeler power
3.thousands of people in pakistan know how nukes work and so do i :W00T: :W00T: :W00T: :W00T:
so bringing up khan as an exuse will just show that how misberable ,scared etc the indians are with PAF getting the vipers :PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag:

[Saqr]

PAF had 410 combat planes in 1999
[right][snapback]610766[/snapback][/right]

Well take my word for it, we have 350, give a little - take a little.

I can break it down for you;

• 32 F-16A/B
• ~55 F-7PG
• 70-90 Mirage ROSE I/II
• 30-50 Mirage III/V
• ~35 A-5C
• ~90 F-7P

[Mig29Lover]

Well take my word for it, we have 350, give a little - take a little. 

I can break it down for you;

• 32 F-16A/B
  
• ~55 F-7PG
  
• 70-90 Mirage ROSE I/II
  
• 30-50 Mirage III/V
  
• ~35 A-5C
  
• ~90 F-7P
  

[right][snapback]610781[/snapback][/right]

didn't PAF just bought 150 Mirage from Royal Australian Airforce???

[awais786]

Well take my word for it, we have 350, give a little - take a little. 

I can break it down for you;

• 32 F-16A/B
  
• ~55 F-7PG
  
• 70-90 Mirage ROSE I/II
  
• 30-50 Mirage III/V
  
• ~35 A-5C
  
• ~90 F-7P
  

[right][snapback]610781[/snapback][/right]

didnt PAF had got 22 more vipers in the 90s ? :read: :PakistanFlag: :read: :read:

[Mig29Lover]

didnt PAF had got 22 more vipers in the 90s ? :read:  :PakistanFlag:  :read:  :read:
[right][snapback]610937[/snapback][/right]

The total number of Vipers that PAF recieved was 40, but that was back in 80's. I don't think PAF recieved any in 90 because we were embargoed right after the fall of USSR.Some of them were canabolized for spare parts and rest were grounded cuz of their condition. Diving Falcon is right about the number of F-16's in PAF's inventory.

:PakistanFlag:

[Wing_Man]

Well take my word for it, we have 350, give a little - take a little. 

I can break it down for you;

• 32 F-16A/B
  
• ~55 F-7PG
  
• 70-90 Mirage ROSE I/II
  
• 30-50 Mirage III/V
  
• ~35 A-5C
  
• ~90 F-7P
  

[right][snapback]610781[/snapback][/right]

ye i agree to u that the total number of aircraft is 350 besides the transport wing liason and training aircraft wing. i added them also but the combat jets are about 350
we also got some mirages from libya and engines but i think they were for spares n by the way the mirages total to about 180 in pakistan inventory

[PakShaheen]

Yeah Right 180 Mirages. PAF is biggest operator of these planes. Actually these mirages kept moral of PAF high during our lost decade (90's).

But i think now things will be fine for PAF. I m intresting in getting AWACS and "another high tech" fighter along with F-16.

[Wing_Man]

Yeah Right 180 Mirages. PAF is biggest operator of these planes. Actually these mirages kept moral of PAF high during our lost decade (90's).

But i think now things will be fine for PAF. I m intresting in getting AWACS and "another high tech" fighter along with F-16.
[right][snapback]611115[/snapback][/right]

[COLOR=green]AGREED....... :bounce: :bounce: :BANANA:

[sfhussain]

Pakistan Air Force Inventory



Updated Inventory As of February 2004:System Quantity Role/Description

F-16A 21 Multi-Role Air Superiority fighter
F-16B 11 Advanced Trainer and wartime ground-attack fighter
F-7MP 155 Air superiority fighter and Interceptor
FT-7MP 15 Advanced Trainer and wartime ground-attack fighter
F-7 PG 55 Multi-Role Air Superiority fighter and Interceptor
Mirage III O 43 Air superiority interceptor and ground-attack fighter
Mirage III OD 7 Advanced Trainer and wartime ground-attack fighter
Mirage III E 40 Air superiority interceptor and ground-attack fighter
Mirage III EP 18 Air superiority interceptor and ground-attack fighter
Mirage III DP 2 Advanced Trainer and wartime ground-attack fighter
Mirage 5 58 Air superiority interceptor, ground-attack and anti- ship fighter
Mirage 5B 4 Advanced Trainer and wartime ground-attack fighter
A-5C 48 Ground-attack/strike aircraft
K-8 Karakorum 6+ Advanced Jet Trainer and wartime light attack fighter
FT-6 15 Jet Fighter Conversion Trainer and wartime ground- attack fighter
FT-5 25 Jet-Fighter Conversion Trainer and attack fighter
T-37 'Tweet' 20 Basic Trainer (Jet)

MMFI-395
Super Mushak 20+ Primary Trainer (Turbo-prop)
MFI-17 'Mushak' 80+ Primary Trainer (Turbo-prop)
Mirage IIIRP 12 Reconnaissance aircraft.
Falcon DA-20 2 ELINT / ECM
CN-235-220 (Another three By Dec 2004) 1 Light Transport/Surveillance Aircraft
C-130B/E/Hercules 20 Heavy Tactical Transport
Boeing 707 3 VIP/Light Transport
HAMC Y-12 (II) 1 Light Tactical Transport/General Utility
Antonov An-26 1 Medium Tactical Transport
Fokker F-27 200 2 Light Transport/General Utility
Falcon 20 1 VIP Transport
Super King Air 1 Light Transport
Bonanza 1 Light Transport
L-100 1 Light Transport
Alouette III 12 Attack and general utility helicopter
SA 330 Puma Unknown Attack and general utility helicopter

[ZPak]

Can someone post a picture of the Block 52 we're getting. I did a little research and there seems to be two different versions. The older version looks like the F-16s we have but have advanced avionics.

Theres a second "Advanced Block 52" that looks similar to the Block 60 being acquired by the UAE and Greece. Which one are we getting.


Check this site:F-16 Blocks???



Please Clarify.

[tallyho]

take a look at this paragraph which i got from

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/27/index2.php
"India should not be overtly worried about the prospect of Pakistan acquiring the much-coveted F-16s, which have more symbolic and egoistic value since they are not a genuine fourth-generation fighter"

any comments?
[right][snapback]610659[/snapback][/right]

It is part of Indian constitution to wory about any Pakistani acquisition---even if is a T6G harward. It is in their nature; F-16 has nothing to do with it.

[mushru]

I have read on a thread here that 125 fighters will cost about USD 16 billion. How much will Pakistan's 70 F-16s cost? Anyone want to share any numbers.

[tank131]

The F-16 block 52 has a unit price of $35-$40 million.

24 F-16s will cost $840-$960million

70 will cost $2.45-$2.8bln over the entire delivery perior (which would probably be at least 5 years or more. (This is 70 total including the initial 24).

I would tack on at least another billion worth of weapons and spare parts for the deal so I would say that PAF is looking at a total of $1.84-$3.8bln depending on the number of F-16s aquired.

I dont know the cost of upgrading block 15s to MLU status...so I wont comment on that.

[mosaeqeh80]

Assalam-o-Alakum. Salam.

True that the F-16 production line is closing, but the F-16C/D Block-52 is well on par with the Mirage 2000-5Mk2, and the Block-52 is more advanced than the IAF's MiG-29, Mirage 2000, well just about everything except Su-30MKI.  However, this on paper, in real life, a F-16 armed with a BVR is as much of a threat to an MKI as an MKI is a threat to a F-16.
[right][snapback]610647[/snapback][/right]

That's not right. The MiG-29's that the IAF has are being upgraded to almost the SMT standrad which will give a hard fight to the F-16's. Also, the Mirage-2000's that the IAF has are very advanced aircrafts and are at least as good as the Block50/52's.

The F-16 block 52 has a unit price of $35-$40 million.

24 F-16s will cost $840-$960million

70 will cost $2.45-$2.8bln over the entire delivery perior (which would probably be at least 5 years or more. (This is 70 total including the initial 24).

I would tack on at least another billion worth of weapons and spare parts for the deal so I would say that PAF is looking at a total of $1.84-$3.8bln depending on the number of F-16s aquired.

I dont know the cost of upgrading block 15s to MLU status...so I wont comment on that.
[right][snapback]612518[/snapback][/right]

The cost of weapons, training and infastructure is included in the price of the aircraft.

Thank you.
Khuda Hafiz.

[Saqr]

That's not right. The MiG-29's that the IAF has are being upgraded to almost the SMT standrad which will give a hard fight to the F-16's. Also, the Mirage-2000's that the IAF has are very advanced aircrafts and are at least as good as the Block50/52'

The current MiG-29 IAF operates IS inferior to the F-16C/D Block-52, similarly, IAF is going for MiG-29M2s, not SMTs at this moment, one can consider the MiG-29M2 a direct equal to the Block-52 on paper. In addition, the Mirage 2000 IAF operates is also inferior to the Block-52. The Mirage 2000-5Mk2 is perhaps an equal to the Block-52, however, IAF cannot get both MiG-29M2 and Mirage 2000-5Mk2, only one. Given how strong Russian pressure is, there's a good chance they'll get MiG-29M2 over Mk2, but then again, Western stuff IS more reliable!

[mosaeqeh80]

Assalam-o-Alakum. Salam.

The current MiG-29 IAF operates IS inferior to the F-16C/D Block-52, similarly, IAF is going for MiG-29M2s, not SMTs at this moment, one can consider the MiG-29M2 a direct equal to the Block-52 on paper.  In addition, the Mirage 2000 IAF operates is also inferior to the Block-52.  The Mirage 2000-5Mk2 is perhaps an equal to the Block-52, however, IAF cannot get both MiG-29M2 and Mirage 2000-5Mk2, only one.  Given how strong Russian pressure is, there's a good chance they'll get MiG-29M2 over Mk2, but then again, Western stuff IS more reliable!
[right][snapback]612677[/snapback][/right]

India will go for the MiG-29M2 as their 126 new combat fighters. I'm talking about upgrading their existing fleet of MiG-29s. Those are going to be upgraded to the SMT standard.

Also, don't underestimate Russian stuff. It's good.

Thank you.
Khuda Hafiz.

[amaccpc]

none should never ever underestimate russian stuff

like MIG29 smt m1 m2 t90