Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: capt.sathish Jan 18 2004, 02:33 AM

http://www.policyarchitects.org/pdf/ForceModern_IndiaPakistan2.pdf


better read the contents in the link rather than the contents below.



India and Pakistan
Rodney W. Jones Rodney W. Jones
APCSS Conference on Conventional Arms APCSS Conference on Conventional Arms
Rivalry in Asia Rivalry in Asia – Pacific Region Pacific Region
October 23 October 23-25, 2001 25, 2001
Policy Architects International 2
Conditions of Regional Security
nn Conventional Conventional-nuclear interacts in 1990s nuclear interacts in 1990s
nn Slow Slow-burn “arms race” exists in South Asia burn “arms race” exists in South Asia
nn China is factor in South Asian rivalry China is factor in South Asian rivalry
nn Internal threats are salient Internal threats are salient
nn Terrorism is endemic, not new Terrorism is endemic, not new
nn RMA? burro RMA? burro-gait, no stallion gait, no stallion-gallup gallup
nn Asymmetric vs. US? No. Each other? Yes. Asymmetric vs. US? No. Each other? Yes.
Policy Architects International 3
Conventional arms modernization
nn hardware hardware - combat equipment, EW, C combat equipment, EW, C3
nn software software - strategy, planning, doctrine, IT strategy, planning, doctrine, IT
nn organization organization - command and personnel command and personnel
quality, rational task allocation, morale, quality, rational task allocation, morale,
adaptability adaptability
nn indigenous R&D indigenous R&D
nn budget and procurement rationality budget and procurement rationality
Policy Architects International 4
Geopolitical watersheds
nn Independence challenges Independence challenges
nn Cold War problems and opportunities Cold War problems and opportunities
nn Indo Indo-Pakistani wars of 1965 and 1971 Pakistani wars of 1965 and 1971
nn Energy Security: 1973 OPEC challenge Energy Security: 1973 OPEC challenge
nn Crescent of Crisis: Iran and Afghanistan Crescent of Crisis: Iran and Afghanistan
nn Cold War transition and Soviet demise Cold War transition and Soviet demise
nn 1991 Gulf War 1991 Gulf War
nn Nuclear transition Nuclear transition
Policy Architects International 5
Defense Budgets and Burdens
nn Comparing India and Pakistan, 1970 Comparing India and Pakistan, 1970-2000 2000
nn Defense expenditures Defense expenditures - in US dollars in US dollars
nn Defense expenditures Defense expenditures - as % of GDP as % of GDP
nn Comparing India and China, 1979 Comparing India and China, 1979-2000 … 2000 …
nn estimates of defense expenditure estimates of defense expenditure
Chart 1. Defense Expenditures, India and Pakistan, 1970-2000
0
2
4
6
8
10
12
14
16
18
20
1970 1975 1980 1985 1990 1995 2000
Year
US Dollars in Billions
India Def Exp excluding
paramilitary, atomic energy
and space
India Def Exp including
paramilitary, atomic energy,
and space
Pakistan Def Budget
Pakistan Def Expend
Nuclear
Tests
1971
War
Soviets intervene
in Afghanistan
Soviet
exit
Kashmir
insurgency
Policy Architects International 7
Chart 1
I-P
Defense Expenditures, 1970-2000:
Noteworthy Watersheds and Trends (
1)
nn Slope of Indian increase high, Pakistani gradual Slope of Indian increase high, Pakistani gradual
nn I-P ratio changes from 2:1 (1970) to 4+:1 (1999) P ratio changes from 2:1 (1970) to 4+:1 (1999)
nn Pak exp drops after 71 war and 91 Pak exp drops after 71 war and 91 Pressler Pressler cutoff cutoff
nn Pak budgets and actual exp diverge (post Pak budgets and actual exp diverge (post-96) 96)
nn Pak under severe duress after Soviet exit from Pak under severe duress after Soviet exit from
Afghanistan, when US pulls plug on assistance, Afghanistan, when US pulls plug on assistance,
and Cold War is over and Cold War is over
nn Pak above Pak above-budget expenditures: nuclear? Taliban? budget expenditures: nuclear? Taliban?
Policy Architects International 8
Chart 1
I-P
Defense Expenditures, 1970-2000 -
Watersheds and Trends continued (
2)
nn Indian def exp doubles in 1970s, again in 1980s Indian def exp doubles in 1970s, again in 1980s
nn Why? Because Soviets intervened in Afghanistan? Why? Because Soviets intervened in Afghanistan?
nn Or because Soviets “bought India out”? Or because Soviets “bought India out”?
nn Indian exp rose at unprecedented pace in 1980s Indian exp rose at unprecedented pace in 1980s
nn Then dropped after Soviet exit … Then dropped after Soviet exit …
nn Despite insurgency in Kashmir Despite insurgency in Kashmir
nn Then rose sharply again in 1993 (econ growth?) Then rose sharply again in 1993 (econ growth?)
nn Jumped phenomenally in 1999 (BJP? nuclear?) Jumped phenomenally in 1999 (BJP? nuclear?)
Chart 2. Defense Expenditures as Per Cent of GDP -
India and Pakistan, 1970-2000
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1970 1975 1980 1985 1990 1995 2000
Year
Per Cent of GDP
Pakistan
India
1971
War
Soviets intervene
in Afghanistan
Soviet
exit
Kashmir
insurgency
India's
economic
growth
accelerates
Policy Architects International 10
Chart 2
India-Pakistan Defense
Expenditure as Percentage of GDP
nn Pak % of GDP closer to India’s in 1970 Pak % of GDP closer to India’s in 1970
nn Pak profile jagged after loss of East Pakistan GDP Pak profile jagged after loss of East Pakistan GDP
nn Pak burden rises after Soviets occupy Afghanistan Pak burden rises after Soviets occupy Afghanistan
nn Continues up after Soviet exit, till 92 Continues up after Soviet exit, till 92-93 … 93 …
nn Then drops as economy labors in 1990s Then drops as economy labors in 1990s
nn India’s profile less volatile, but climbs 93 India’s profile less volatile, but climbs 93-99 99
Chart 3. Comparison of Chinese and Indian
Defense Expenditure, 1980-2000
1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000
Year
US Dollars in Billions
0
5
10
15
20
25
30
35
40
45
1980 1985 1990 1995 2000
China Def Exp
India Def Exp
Cold War
ends
Nuclear
tests
Kashmir
insurgency
Soviets
exit
Afghanistan
Policy Architects International 12
Chart 3
Chinese and Indian Defense Expenditure -
1980-2000
nn Chinese slope is down until Cold War ends Chinese slope is down until Cold War ends
nn China China-India ratio drops from 5:1 to 2.3:1 India ratio drops from 5:1 to 2.3:1
nn Then Chinese expenditures climb (econ growth?) Then Chinese expenditures climb (econ growth?)
nn Indian expenditures drop briefly after 1990 Indian expenditures drop briefly after 1990
nn Then Indian expenditures climb, fast … Then Indian expenditures climb, fast …
nn But not quite as fast as China’s But not quite as fast as China’s
nn Are they linked? Big Russian sales to both! Are they linked? Big Russian sales to both!
Chart 4. Composition of India's and Pakistan's Air Forces
1980-2000
0
100
200
300
400
500
600
700
800
900
1000
1980 1990 1995 2000 1980 1990 1995 2000 Year
Combat Aircraft
Attack Helicopters
Strategic Bombers
Naval Cbt Aircraft
Nuclear-Capable
High-Performance
Vintage Fighters
720
903
939
836
strategic
bomber
capability
233 nuclear-capable
tactical aircraft
306
446
406
329
India Pakistan
Policy Architects International 14
Chart 4. India and Pakistan -
Air Forces, 1980-2000
nn “Vintage” combat aircraft dominate until 1980 “Vintage” combat aircraft dominate until 1980
nn Modernization jumps sharply from 1980 Modernization jumps sharply from 1980-1990 1990
nn High High-performance and nuclear performance and nuclear-capable dominate capable dominate
nn India’s superiority increases vs. Pakistan … India’s superiority increases vs. Pakistan …
nn Especially in high Especially in high-performance, ground performance, ground-attack attack
nn India adds “strategic” (long India adds “strategic” (long-range) aircraft range) aircraft
nn IAF doctrine to preempt airfields … IAF doctrine to preempt airfields …
nn Nuclear instability? Nuclear instability?
Aircraft Type Operating Radius Inventory Supplier
(km, unrefueled)
India
Modern
Su-30 MK 1,200 40 Russia
Mirage 2000H/TH 1,475 35 France/UK
Jaguar S(I) 900 88 France/UK
MiG-29 (Fulcrum) 630 64 Russia
Vintage
MiG-21 MF/PFMA 250 69 Russia
MiG-23 BN/UM 350 53 Russia
MiG-27 (Flogger) 390 147 Russia
Strategic (Long-Range)
Tu-142 (Bear F) ASW 6,200 8 Russia
Ilyushin-38 (marit recon) 3,600 5 Russia
Tu-22M (Backfire) 4,430 4 Russia
Total 513
Pakistan
Modern
F-16 A/B 850 25 US
Vintage
Mirage IIIEP 500 16 France
Mirage 5 500 52 France
Total 93
Table 1. Nuclear-Capable Strike and Reconnaissance Aircraft
India and Pakistan - 2000
Chart 5. Composition of India's and Pakistan's Ground Forces -
Armor and Artillery, 1979-2000
0
1000
2000
3000
4000
5000
6000
7000
8000
9000
1979 1985 1990 1992 1996 2000 1979 1985 1990 1992 1996 2000
Year
Vehicles and Systems
Short-range Ballistic
Missiles (SRBMs)
Multiple Rocket Launchers
(MRLs)
Self-propelled Artillery (SPs)
Armored Infantry Fighting
Vehicles (AIFVs)
Armored Personnel Carriers
(APCs)
Modern 'Main Battle Tanks'
(MBTs)
Vintage Tanks
Tanks in storage
India Pakista
Policy Architects International 17
Chart 5
India and Pakistan, Armor and Artillery -
1979 to 2000
nn Vintage vs. modern (e.g., self Vintage vs. modern (e.g., self-propelled artillery) propelled artillery)
nn India modernizes rapidly 1979 India modernizes rapidly 1979-90, MBTs, 90, MBTs, AIFVs AIFVs
nn Pakistani Pakistani reequipment reequipment much slower, less potent much slower, less potent
nn Quantitative balance roughly constant Quantitative balance roughly constant
nn Qualitative balance worse for Pakistan after 1990 Qualitative balance worse for Pakistan after 1990
nn Indian ground force coordination makes strides Indian ground force coordination makes strides
nn Surface Surface-to to-surface missiles being introduced surface missiles being introduced
nn India with strategic depth, Pakistan narrow India with strategic depth, Pakistan narrow
Chart 6. India's and Pakistan's Naval Forces, 1980-2000
0
20
40
60
80
100
120
1980 1990 1992 1995 2000 1980 1990 1992 1995 2000
Year
Naval Combat Vessels
Mine Warfare Vessels
Coastal Combatants
Nuclear Submarines
Modern Submarines
Vintage Submarines
Aircraft Carriers
Modern Surface Ships:
DDGs, FFs
Vintage Surface Ships
Indi
a
Pakistan
Blue Water
fleet
Coastal
fleet
Policy Architects International 19
Chart 6
India and Pakistan Naval Forces 1980-2000
nn Vintage vs. modern Vintage vs. modern
nn Indian “blue Indian “blue-water” fleet increasing slowly water” fleet increasing slowly
nn Pakistani navy actually shrinking Pakistani navy actually shrinking
nn India acquires modern diesel submarines 1980 India acquires modern diesel submarines 1980-90 90
nn India upgrades surface missile ships after 1990 India upgrades surface missile ships after 1990
nn India seeks nuclear India seeks nuclear-powered submarines, future powered submarines, future
nn India’s aircraft carriers and SSN/SSBN plans India’s aircraft carriers and SSN/SSBN plans
indicate power project ambitions, but slow results indicate power project ambitions, but slow results
Chart 6.2 India's and Pakistan's Naval Air and Airborne Warning
1980-2000
33 41
68
37
27
73
75
72
17
46
40
5
0
2
4
5 4 5 2
9 13 10
6
5
8
4
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
50
100
150
200
250
1980 1990 1995 2000 1980 1990 1995 2000
Year
Aircraft
AEW-AWAC
Aircraft
ASW Patrol
Aircraft
Naval Armed
Helicopters
Naval Combat
Aircraft
India Pakistan
Policy Architects International 21
Chart 6.2 India and Pakistan Naval Air and AEW
nn Shows efforts to build up naval capabilities Shows efforts to build up naval capabilities
nn Indian emphasis on ASW and AEW aircraft Indian emphasis on ASW and AEW aircraft
nn India also has trouble sustaining naval combat air India also has trouble sustaining naval combat air
nn But Pakistan has very thin naval air capabilities But Pakistan has very thin naval air capabilities
nn Pakistan vulnerable to blockade Pakistan vulnerable to blockade
Policy Architects International 22
7. Space and Air Surveillance
nnIndia India
nn remote sensing satellites remote sensing satellites
nn 8 Tu Tu-142M Bear 142M Bear
nn 5 Il 5 Il-38 maritime 38 maritime reconn reconn
nn 19 19 Dornier Dornier-228 228 reconn reconn
nn 4 HS 4 HS-748 AEW 748 AEW
nn 8 MiG 8 MiG-25R/U photograph 25R/U photograph
nn 5 Tu Tu-22M3 to lease 22M3 to lease
nnPakistan Pakistan
nn satellite in development satellite in development
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn 3-4 Atlantique 4 Atlantique
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn no counterpart no counterpart
Policy Architects International 23
8. India and Pakistan Air Force Procurement
nnIndia India
nn Su Su-30MK FGA (new) 30MK FGA (new)
nn Jaguar FGA (upgrading) Jaguar FGA (upgrading)
nn Mirage 2000 (more, Mirage 2000 (more, upgr upgr)
nn MiG MiG-21 FGA ( 21 FGA (upgr upgr)
nn LCA (develop, since 83) LCA (develop, since 83)
nn Astra Astra AAM AAM
nn HS HS-748, ELINT 748, ELINT
nn Nishant Nishant UAVs UAVs
nnPakistan Pakistan
nn FC FC-1, FGA (China) 1, FGA (China)
nn F-7MG, FGA (China) 7MG, FGA (China)
nn Mirage Mirage-3 (upgrade) 3 (upgrade)
Policy Architects International 24
8
(
cont) India and Pakistan -
Air Force Procurement
nn India India
nn Searcher Searcher-2 UAV (Israel) 2 UAV (Israel)
nn Il Il-78, tanker aircraft 78, tanker aircraft
nn HJT HJT-36 trainers ( 36 trainers (domest domest)
nn Iskra Iskra TS TS-11 trainer ( 11 trainer (Pol Pol)
nn Pakistan Pakistan
Policy Architects International 25
9. India and Pakistan -
Navy Procurement
nn India India
nn Adm Gorshkov Adm Gorshkov A/Carrier A/Carrier
nn SSN (ATV) for 2007 SSN (ATV) for 2007
nn Kilo SSK subs (Russia) Kilo SSK subs (Russia)
nn Type 209 subs (Germany) Type 209 subs (Germany)
nn Delhi Delhi DDs DDs (domestic) (domestic)
nn Brahmaputra FFGs Brahmaputra FFGs (dom dom)
nn Krivak Krivak FF (Russia) FF (Russia)
nn Kora Kora FSG corvette (Russ) FSG corvette (Russ)
nn Pakistan Pakistan
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn no counterpart no counterpart
nn Khalid SSK subs (France) Khalid SSK subs (France)
Policy Architects International 26
9. India and Pakistan Naval Procurement cont
nn India India
nn Super Super Dvora Dvora T-81 fast 81 fast
patrol craft (Israel) patrol craft (Israel)
nn Harrier TMk4 (UK) Harrier TMk4 (UK)
nn P-3C Orion maritime 3C Orion maritime
patrol ASW (US) patrol ASW (US)
nn Dornier Dornier-228 (Germany) 228 (Germany)
nn K-31 EW 31 EW heli heli (Russia) (Russia)
nn Magyar LST Magyar LST
nn Pakistan Pakistan
nn Shujat Shujat fast patrol fast patrol cr cr (PRC) (PRC)
Policy Architects International 27
10. India Pakistan Army Procurement
nn India India
nn T-90 MBT (Russia) 90 MBT (Russia)
nn Arjun Arjun MBT (domestic) MBT (domestic)
nn Casspir Casspir APC (S. Africa) APC (S. Africa)
nn Mi Mi-17iB 17iB heli heli (Russia) (Russia)
nn Nag ATGW ( Nag ATGW (domest domest)
nn M-46 artillery 46 artillery upgr upgr (Israel (Israel
nn 2S6 self 2S6 self-prop AA (Russia) prop AA (Russia)
nn T-72VT, armored recover 72VT, armored recover
nn Pakistan Pakistan
nn T-80UD MBT (Ukraine) 80UD MBT (Ukraine)
nn M-113 APC (US) 113 APC (US)
nn Al Al-Khalid MBT ( Khalid MBT (domest domest)
Policy Architects International 28
11. India’s Modernization Summary
nn Slow but steady Slow but steady
nn Import dependent for first Import dependent for first-line equipment, despite line equipment, despite
domestic R&D programs domestic R&D programs
nn Breadth and depth in capabilities, e.g. surveillance Breadth and depth in capabilities, e.g. surveillance
nn Blue water naval ambitions, eyes bigger than Blue water naval ambitions, eyes bigger than
stomach stomach
nn Air and ground forces potent vs. Pakistan Air and ground forces potent vs. Pakistan
nn Russia main supplier, some European, Israeli Russia main supplier, some European, Israeli
Policy Architects International 29
12. Pakistan’s Modernization Summary
nn Technical modernization is slow Technical modernization is slow
nn Dependent on China for most new equipment Dependent on China for most new equipment
nn Some aircraft upgrades from Europe Some aircraft upgrades from Europe
nn Falling far behind India in surveillance and Falling far behind India in surveillance and
connectivity connectivity
nn Vulnerability to preemptive conventional air Vulnerability to preemptive conventional air
attack is destabilizing attack is destabilizing
nn Incentive to rely on unconventional warfare Incentive to rely on unconventional warfare
Policy Architects International 30
13. Policy Implications
nn Conventional military imbalance Conventional military imbalance - unstable unstable
nn Asymmetry is worsening for Pakistan Asymmetry is worsening for Pakistan
nn Pakistan’s nuclear threshold is dropping Pakistan’s nuclear threshold is dropping
nn Pakistan highly dependent on China Pakistan highly dependent on China
nn Pakistan, unconventional incentives growing Pakistan, unconventional incentives growing
nn US war against terrorism is opportunity to provide US war against terrorism is opportunity to provide
relief on Afghanistan and economy relief on Afghanistan and economy
nn Is conventional rebalancing possible? Is conventional rebalancing possible?

Posted by: goodman Jan 18 2004, 03:55 AM

Every one know it(except for the subs PN is totally crap)

Posted by: cutter Jan 18 2004, 04:44 AM

yes except the agosta.every thing is :(Blah

Posted by: kataphraktoi Jan 18 2004, 05:44 AM

If i'm not mistaken...the entire surface fleet of PN or atleast its major combatants are all second hand

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 18 2004, 06:20 AM

Thats now...but later the PN will have something like 6 Agosta-90B Submarines, and 12 053H3 Guided Missile Frigates. Which will be armed with Supersonic C-803 Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles, Exocet Anti-Ship Missiles, and U.S may even provide Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles.

Besides, the Agosta-90B Submarine's the most advanced Submarine in the Indian Ocean, and by the time you sign that Scorpene Submarine Deal :rolleyes: God Knows when, they'll be 6 Agosta-90Bs backed by P-3 Orions hunting for your Subs.

Posted by: kataphraktoi Jan 18 2004, 06:43 AM

What about IN's four HDW Type 209's and its upgraded IL-38 May's and TU-142 Bears.

Posted by: kataphraktoi Jan 18 2004, 06:46 AM

Posted by: wajman Jan 18 2004, 07:16 AM

well its simple
Bright side
if its a short war of say 1 ~2 weeks the indians would be able to do jack #### as they would contiously be harassed by pn subs and surface fleet not to mention asw aircraft and fighters within a 300 nm radius indian ships would face hell and would have colossal losses

lul side

but if its a long war something on the lines of 1~ 2 months then the navy would lose as india can take those colasssal loses and still stick around.

we realy need those f-22ps and atleast 6 more agusta withthe fbc-1 and a tanker plane.

out of the 13 su30 mki's how many would u dedicate for naval missions as of today.

bhmos well the ships do have anti ship wepons. that 2 of western origin. furthmore the jags and even mig-29s WHEN U GET THEM will be no match for a f-7 or f-7pg we have 160 or more of them and guess what their effective range is 300nm they take off form karchi and SHOOT DOWN ANY jags comeing in form indian port cities. the harrier well same as always within 300 nm the plane stands no chance.

wajman :pkflg)

wajman :pkflg)

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 18 2004, 07:56 AM

The Pakistan Navy should honesly have 12 053H3 Guided Missile Frigates, 6 Agosta-90B Submarines, and 12 Jalaalat Class Missile Boats as it's combatants. They should be armed with C-803 Supersonic Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles, Exocet and Anti-Ship Missiles so they can attack Indian Surface Ships :red><.

4 Frigates should be armed with Crotale-4000 SAMs so they can take-care of those MIG-29Ks, and it's other Maritime Aircraft. The PN should have 8 P-3 Orions, arm them with Anti-Submarine Weapons, with 2 SAAB-340 AWACS planes, the P-3s can easily hunt down, and KILL the Akulla, Kilo, and possibiliy of Scorpene Submarines. (doubt it anytime soon). There should be like 20 Mirage Vs in PN colours optimised with Maritime Capabilities, arm them with Exocets, and C-803s so they can hunt down, and KILL Indian Navy Surface Ships. The PAF should have like 20 JF-17s to provide Air Cover for the PN Fleet, the PAF's JF-17s should be armed with SD-10s, and PL-9s so they can take-out IN MIG-29Ks, and other Maritime Aircraft.

Posted by: SSG_PK Jan 18 2004, 08:37 AM

What a stupid topic; hey captain what are you trying to prove?

Posted by: baagi Jan 18 2004, 08:52 AM

Posted by: King Salmon Jan 18 2004, 09:35 AM

bad formatting of the article...

Posted by: MKI Jan 18 2004, 02:07 PM

Posted by: Denil Jan 19 2004, 05:42 AM

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 19 2004, 06:34 AM

Posted by: wajman Jan 19 2004, 07:11 AM

Posted by: h177 Jan 19 2004, 07:22 AM

Posted by: blackjar Jan 19 2004, 08:04 AM

Posted by: h177 Jan 19 2004, 08:05 AM

Posted by: Squadron Leader Jan 19 2004, 10:55 AM

Posted by: goodman Jan 19 2004, 11:42 AM

Posted by: GangsterNation Jan 19 2004, 12:34 PM

WHAT THE
FIRST OF ALL PN NAVY SUCKS DONT REMIND US
2ND OF ALL WE NEED TO SPEED UP THE AGOSTAS CONTRUCTION AND PURCHASE US SURFACE SHIPS SINCE THEY HAVE THE BEST

Posted by: GangsterNation Jan 19 2004, 12:36 PM

Posted by: pakibath Jan 19 2004, 01:54 PM

Pakistan has a small sea shore and one port and future might be two. All our supplies come in from the persian gulf. So we don have to venture out much we just need a defensive Navy. Only draw back in we cant get supplies from China through sea during war. Pakistan should really develop the land route to China. We should try to get our supplies through land and probably through air. For this we need to have good relationship with Afghanistan. Pakistan should ally with Bangladesh and also improve Bangladesh's Navy so that, India keeps some of her ships in the eastern side.

Posted by: MKI Jan 19 2004, 02:22 PM

Well Most people seem to think that India would be the country to invade Pakistan. But on the contrary, India is a status quo country and Time and again India said (Thank God) that it does not want any part of pakisatn.

It is Pakistan that wants a piece of India, be it Kashmir or else where. In all the previous wars, It is well known who is the agressor. So, India would be the defender in any war with Pakistan. Take recent example of Kargil. But Pakistan's navy is not capable of having a aggresive role against India because of its size.

Indian ships were getting ready for the blockade - was the news during Kargil. I am not sure how it would have gone at that time, but now seeing the amount of money being spent of acquiring new ships and subs and more naval bases, it is just imperative that, Navy wise Pakistan's Navy would be smaller. Not that Pakistan's navy is a push over, but it would be small to pose a aggresive threat to Indian Navy. The quality and quantity of the ships in Indian Navy is equal or much greater than whatever Pakistan has in its inventory.

Posted by: faz101 Jan 20 2004, 12:08 AM

yes but ur talking about the present inventory....we all agree that at present the navy needs help but then again there is no threat of a war in the horizon anyways (thank God) so there is no need to spend billions on the navy. but rest assured we r slowly but surely increasing the quantity and quality of our ships, subs and a/c.

Posted by: blackjar Jan 20 2004, 12:43 AM

Posted by: GangsterNation Jan 20 2004, 12:58 AM

Posted by: GangsterNation Jan 20 2004, 01:00 AM

Posted by: blackjar Jan 20 2004, 03:21 AM

what the F????

Posted by: wajman Jan 20 2004, 05:50 AM

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 20 2004, 07:59 AM

India has a Huge Coast line, and during war it'll have to even-out it's Powerful Navy, or else it can expect the PLAN coming into their Eastern Harbours :D

Posted by: faz101 Jan 20 2004, 08:38 AM

Posted by: faz101 Jan 20 2004, 08:39 AM

Posted by: Dashti Jan 20 2004, 09:27 AM

Two EXOCETS can also do the job 'damn fine... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 20 2004, 09:51 AM

Posted by: MKI Jan 20 2004, 10:21 AM

Posted by: blackjar Jan 20 2004, 11:46 AM

Posted by: Pervez Musharraf Jan 20 2004, 12:10 PM

Posted by: Ajgir Jan 21 2004, 09:27 AM

India has a Coast Line of approximately 7,000 Kilo Metres whereas Pakistan’s Coast Line is approximately 1,000 Kilo Metres and as such it is quite natural for the Indian Navy to be Seven Times the Pakistani Navy if the Indian Coast Line is to be guarded sufficiently.

I do not think that Pakistan should try to have a larger proportion of Navy in respect to India more than a Ratio of 1::7.

Peace

Posted by: capt.sathish Jan 21 2004, 09:42 AM

Posted by: capt.sathish Jan 21 2004, 09:44 AM

Posted by: blackjar Jan 21 2004, 11:04 AM

This is news from the Business Standard (www.business-standard.com) - 21/01/2004

L&T has been approved by the Govt. of India to become India's Second Submarine builder after the Mazgaon docks.

According to the report the GOI has already signed an LOI with Mazgaon Docks to build 6 submarines of French / german design. L&T is in advanced talks with mazgaon docks to assist in this program.

In addition L&T has been identified to build 6 submarines of Russian design with the last one entering service by 2025. L&T is currently in talks with Royal Dutch Shell to buy their dry dock facilities in West india. The cost of each submarine is estimated at INR 1200 crores at present value.

L&T's current Defence business is valued at INR 300 crore.

Posted by: pakibath Jan 21 2004, 04:17 PM

Posted by: blackjar Jan 21 2004, 05:24 PM

Nope it is to state 3 points
1. India plans to build 6 subs of French / German design. - means Scorpene / HDW Type 209, etc
2. India plans to build 6 subs on a Russian design - Could be Akula variants.
3. The Private sector is entering as a defence contratcor on such a large scale for the first time in India. - implies Better project management, better quality levels.

Posted by: Dashti Jan 21 2004, 05:46 PM

Why not integrate the best of the two or three techs???

Ooops, I forgot IT IS INDIA where 'white elephants' are the norm.....
(w00t)


No Smart Shopping in India!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted by: AryanFauji Jan 21 2004, 06:06 PM

Posted by: USAM Jan 21 2004, 07:55 PM

PAK is making missile boats with C 800 all the time but C 803 would be nice but they will need aircraft guidance to fire C 803 to full its range because of earth curve. P 3C and more Harpoons will soon hit pak as new US official year starts along with C 130, 40 Cobras, 40 Bell and much more.


Pak will get about 40 Mirage V and 28 Mirage V from LIBYA and UAE (confirmed and some are already in pak, i think they came to upgrade in the past) and UAE ones will be ready in days, so PAK should get ROSE I upgrade and then get C 803 and then they would be perfect for many missions and escorted by JF 17 they could do alot to IN AC Carrier.

Posted by: AryanFauji Jan 21 2004, 08:01 PM

Posted by: S.R.A.H Jan 21 2004, 11:14 PM

The rate that India is buying Military stuff...

Pakistan can't never catchup or even can go close to that...

All i say is . Pakistan having 12 to 15 destroyers , 10 subs and good air support..

Posted by: wajman Jan 22 2004, 12:04 AM

Posted by: Ajgir Jan 22 2004, 07:05 AM

Posted by: Pervez Musharraf Jan 22 2004, 10:01 AM

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 22 2004, 01:10 PM

I can probably see the Pakistan Navy operating 12 053H3 (F-22P) Guided Missile Frigates, 6 Agosta-90B Submarines, and 12 Jalalat Missile Boats as combatants. All of these armed with C-803s Supersonic Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles, Exocet Anti-Ship Missiles, and possibly Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles. With that, we can expect 4 053H3s using Crotale-4000 SAMs, or Hawk SAMs. The Pakistan Naval Aviation would have like 20 Mirage Vs, 2 EMB-145 AWACS, 8 P-3 Maritime Patrol Aircraft/Submarine Bombers, and 12 NH-90 Frigate Helicopters (possibly).

Posted by: zetsui Jan 22 2004, 05:17 PM

I really so no god damn need for any kind of vessel in our navy except submarines, they take out other subs, they can stop ballistic missiles (if we work on it), and they murder ships.

Posted by: Ajgir Jan 23 2004, 08:59 AM

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 23 2004, 11:54 PM

Posted by: USAM Jan 24 2004, 12:10 AM

And PAK will/is building near 35 to 30 transport fleet so immidate stuff can be transported easily while other stuff is not need immediatly in hours so trains and trucks can deliver the rest of stuff to all country. And pak already have one base soley for navy which is almost operations and other one is being built and then there is anothe in early stages so don't worry.




Guys can somebody tell how much sea pak needs to protect or which IN can blockade because i think after that limit IN couldn't blockade it since its international water right?

Posted by: Hellscream Jan 24 2004, 03:21 AM

those subsonic exocets wont be very difficult to handle....2 at that,...
besides PN/PAF has only 24 AM-39s.
and someone mentioned those MM-40s....subsonic with a range of 50-70kms those F-22Ps wont even get that close. to fire the exocets.

even if those harriers are old they can easily take on those mirag-Vs in AA combat and any F-7 ........plz dont keep harping abt the Naval SD-10 let it atleast get evaluated by PAF.
a refresher course for those who doubt the harrier.
falklands war ------18 harrier of the RAF took on the 200 strong argentinian AF...made up of Mirage-III/V and whooped tar with sidewinders in WVR .
now those are equiped with Magic-IIs not to mention a tender has been put up by the IN for a BVR upgrade.

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 24 2004, 04:12 AM

Who cares about the Naval SD-10, the convensional SD-10, and PL-9 on JF-17s can easily take out the Harrier armed with R-550-2s.

Posted by: Ajgir Jan 24 2004, 06:52 AM

Posted by: pakibath Jan 24 2004, 07:01 PM

That is correct. If Pakistan can build little defence penetrating Navy and if it could manage a amphibous landing just Imagine how much havoc it can create in the Indian under belly.

Posted by: blackjar Jan 25 2004, 09:06 AM

Posted by: pakibath Jan 28 2004, 04:32 PM

Can some one verify the PN fleet below.

EX UK TYPE 21 - 6
EX UK LEANDER - 2
ERIDAN CLASS MINE HUNTERS - 3
JALALAT CLASS MISSILE BOATS - 2
LARKANA CLASS LARGE PATROL CRAFT - 1
HUANGFEN CLASS FAST ATTACK CRAFT - 4
TOWN CLASS PATROL CRAFT - 1
Tankers - 2
Survey - 1
KHALID CLASS (AGOSTA 90-B) -1
HASHMAT CLASS (EX FRENCH AGOSTA-70) - 3
HANGOR CLASS (EX FRENCH DAPHNE) - 1
LOCKHEED P-3C ORION (UPDATE II) - 2
BREGUET ATLANTIC - 1
FOKKER F27-200 -2
Helicopters -12

If this is the state of PN then we cannot do anything I mean it is more of a coast gaurd force with few subs.

Posted by: GangsterNation Jan 28 2004, 06:24 PM

Posted by: Ajgir Jan 29 2004, 07:37 AM

Posted by: AnvilAnthony Jan 29 2004, 11:41 AM

I'm surprised I havn't heard some pakistani saying "Yarr but 10 indian ships equal 1 pakistani ship, allah is with us and will roast their indian stomachs in hell, JEHAD!"

Posted by: Mark Sien Jan 29 2004, 11:54 AM

Posted by: AnvilAnthony Jan 29 2004, 12:04 PM

Posted by: capt.sathish Feb 2 2004, 02:48 AM

I was wondering what it takes to kill a carrier group..
Any one...?

Posted by: loc down Feb 2 2004, 04:26 AM

no one knows, no carrier has been sanked sence world war 2.

Posted by: FASAL XJ Feb 2 2004, 05:33 AM

my idea to improove the PN
2 SQUDRONES OF JH-7As equipped with C-803s and C-802s
1 squdrone oF Mirage V aircraft which can carry the exocets
2squdron of JF-17s to support the JH-7As
2 mid flight refueling tankers
Add 3 more agustos to the Fleet
construct 4 F-22P(ALREADY HAPPENING)
Get hold of the red bird cruise missile and mass produce it
Theres rumours we ahve the muspow thats good
Stengthen the Helo force and buy some second hand Sea Kings from a driendly country.
mass produce high speed patrole boats and equip them with exocets and c-803s
any surface ship is as good as dead in the Pak navy as it is soo fakkan vulnerable soo theres no point in destroyers i recommend we add stealth features on our frigates and missile boats.
The pak navy should be small lethal and able to pack a quick and lethal punch on to the enemy.
there should be long range super sonic anti-shipping missiles on our coasts as a last line of defence if the IN manages to get to karachi

Posted by: blackjar Feb 2 2004, 05:40 AM

Allo

What is this - a Carrier killer force or suggested ORBAT for the PN - Pls clarify.

Posted by: Mark Sien Feb 2 2004, 05:57 AM

Posted by: pakibath Feb 2 2004, 10:50 AM

Posted by: USAM Feb 5 2004, 09:10 PM

Currently PAK have about one dedicated Navy squad of MIRAGE V and P 3C and Atlantiques can fire the harpoon and excoet and integrations C 803 or C 802X with Mirages and UAE Mirages can make the hell out of the carrier and i say couple of missiles and BOOM to the bottom. And the UAE Mirage V which some of them are in PAK can be made ready in weeks and SD 10 will come in 5 months i say and all our ROSE I Mirages and F 7PG will have SD 10 and PL 9C. Then send some Mirages with SD 10 and PL 9C while other carry C 802 or Excoet and you have potent force which will be more then match for IN Harrier Carrier group and don't forget already tested H 2 and H 4 and 2 AWACs will also be for Navy so then will be able to guide the C 803 or longer range missiles to hundreds of KM but that's in the future.


Those 26 Excoets you are talking about are for Agosta 90B plus now we have many H 4 and H 2. C 802 could also be acquirred. US will relase the Harpoons and P 3C along with 700 Million $ this year. PAK is making fast Missiles boats with less RCS with C 802 and their amount is more and increasing. SO IN carrier with Harriers is not that of worry. Plus that thing is pure junk spends most of the time in Maitance with issues like fire and flooding.



In future Carrier with 18 MIG 29K could be matched by JF 17, SD 10, C 803, Mid air Refueling and AWAC (2 for the navy).

Posted by: blackjar Feb 6 2004, 02:40 AM

Well Some things first

1. What is the range of Pak MiragesV?
2. I wouldn?t rely on UAE aircraft ? they?re not Pakistani
3. The closest the IN carrier will go to the Pakistani coast is 150 miles ? and that too under exceptional circumstances.
4. Carrier based Air ops will be supported by navalised Jaguars (already existing) & Su-30?s (in future) ? both of which are long range aircraft whose overall operation in turn will be co-ordinated by Phalcons.
5. The patrol class boats will be targeted not by aircraft but in all likelihood by helos.
6. At the same time as this planned Pakistani attack, the IN will be looking at hitting Pakistani ports with its corvettes / patrol boats. The number of Pakistani boats available is going to be considerably reduced as they will be spread along the Pakistani coast, based chiefly out of Gwadar & Karachi.
7. The air cover available for the PN to operate will also be low as IN ops will be coordinated with IAF ops ? which will occupy critical elements of the IAF. The Pakistani defence services have not demonstrated a good level of inter service cooperation for joint ops as India has in recent times. Also for obvious reasons ? greater PAF resources will be devoted to support the Pakistan Army.

Posted by: kartik_sharma Feb 6 2004, 12:53 PM

if JEHAD is a struggle against one's ego, half of the guys out here who simply refuse to accept facts and live in some dreamland better be champions at Jehad.

Posted by: imran miah Feb 6 2004, 07:21 PM

Is pakistan capable of making frigate or destroyers?

Posted by: loc down Feb 6 2004, 07:36 PM

frigate = yes
destroyer = maby (need tech transfer) for moden destroyer

Posted by: BLACK SPIDER Feb 6 2004, 07:59 PM

Posted by: sam0001 Feb 6 2004, 09:57 PM

Well, if you have the intent to make peace with India, then you dont have to worry about being threatened by a neighbour. Stop JIHAD and make peace.

Posted by: USAM Feb 7 2004, 01:31 AM

LIKE PAK GOV. will listen to you. WE will do whatever we want and other people can :(Blah :(Blah about it all they want. Infact you are compaing to country with 4 times less land and 8 times less population is kindda funny though.

Posted by: USAM Feb 7 2004, 01:37 AM

According to BlackJAR master future plan PN in future with AWACs, P 3C, Altanquies, JF 17, atleast three F 22P, AGOSTA 90B, Harpoon, C 803, H 2, and H 4 would be ploishing their weapons while IN and IAF excute thier master piece. (2008 secrino)


Pak upgraded those Mirage and over hauled them in PAC and most of them are stored in PAK to be ready with short notice and they still have EXCOET and many aircrafts that can fire them and don't forget that less then in 5 months you will see SD 10 on all PAF fighters which have tested them and H 4 also have good range near or more then Harpoon.

Posted by: reasonable Feb 8 2004, 06:47 PM

Just so all the dreamers know, India is getting 6 Scorpios and leasing 2 Akula2s.
We REALLY need stuff for our navy and air force.

Posted by: GangsterNation Feb 8 2004, 06:55 PM

just to let you know our army navy and airforce sucks big time we are better off with a mustang opps we cant afford that



we are screwed what do u want to do

Posted by: blackjar Feb 9 2004, 12:45 AM

Posted by: loc down Feb 9 2004, 07:02 AM

i think his trying 2 say tat pakistan is getting there's earlyer so suck #### :)

Posted by: blackjar Feb 9 2004, 07:46 AM

Posted by: ShitScaredbhangee Feb 14 2004, 02:05 AM

It's not wise to compare two completelty different navies.

Pakistani navy is for patrolling & purely self defence puoposes only while the indians have an mbition to become the emperors of the INDIAN OCEAN.

Posted by: TNP Feb 14 2004, 04:46 PM

Posted by: USAM Feb 14 2004, 09:45 PM

Money will solve the all problems so we are looking good at that front so just think about two things that Debt Servicing was 65% of national bueget but in this year it will come down to 22%, with $ 12 Billion Reserves, and 6% GDP growth, LSM 11.5% and Industiral growth of 10% are big factors so in couple of years more money and more money for the game but PAK should minimize the expences and bring country to its feet by fastly reducing poverity, industrializing, and cut the debt.

Posted by: shaolin Feb 15 2004, 08:02 AM

India can burn as much money as they want, but they will never win because they are inferior, haha :(Blah

Posted by: pakibath Feb 15 2004, 11:25 AM

Indians are surely inferior the proof is their urine drinking habbit.

Posted by: Hellscream Feb 16 2004, 12:21 AM

pakibath is that how u increase ur no. of posts bu posting vile crap like that ???

Posted by: AnvilAnthony Feb 16 2004, 02:03 AM

Unless all indians are genetically deformed which I seriously doubt, all humans are pretty much the same, there is no such thing as an inferior race, just bad influences that lead a race.

Posted by: mujahid76 Feb 16 2004, 06:03 PM

What i want to know is that ... tum log in bhindi kuttoon ko mooh kyoon lagatay ho. The retards don't even know the first thing abt being a human. If i didn't know any better, they are the biggest biggots of this century (apart from the americans ofcourse)! Neways, all i wana say is that we Pakistanis should know better than to mingle with these filthy maggots. Don't need to waste ne braincells on them, cuz they're just not worth the time.

And as far as dissing our navy is concerned .......... pehlay maidaan mein aao aur mard kay bacho ki tarha jang lado, tab tak apni kuttay jaisee bhonk bandh rakho bhendhkay choozay lundh!!!!!



Mujahid.

Posted by: AnvilAnthony Feb 17 2004, 06:01 AM

You know maggots are actually pretty damn healthy, I mean if you compare it to a cheeseburger well the differences are astronomical upon epic proportions. Of course I think I'll always prefer the cheeseburger for some illogical reason.

Posted by: capt.sathish Feb 17 2004, 10:10 AM

Posted by: capt.sathish Feb 17 2004, 10:12 AM

Posted by: blain2 Feb 22 2004, 10:20 PM

Posted by: pakibath Feb 22 2004, 11:52 PM

Posted by: RobertBarone Feb 23 2004, 12:42 AM

STFU!

Posted by: blain2 Feb 23 2004, 09:12 AM

Posted by: Dashti Feb 23 2004, 02:12 PM

Posted by: MKI Mar 3 2004, 11:06 AM

Kashmir is disputed according to pakistan only.

Also B'desh was never under dispute, neither before 71, and non disputable after 71

Posted by: Mark Sien Mar 3 2004, 11:37 AM

Pakistan can just easily get 11 used Type-051G Luda III Destroyers from China for 1.1bn US Dollars. These Destroyers, when coupled with 9 New Type-053H3 Guided Missile Frigates and 8 Agosta-90B Submarines for 2.9bn US Dollars will significantly raise the PN's capability, and make it very potent.

Posted by: Dashti Mar 3 2004, 04:06 PM

Posted by: MKI Mar 4 2004, 03:28 PM

Posted by: flash Mar 9 2004, 04:10 PM

Indian Navy could have two aircraft carriers by 2011:Fernandes

On Board INS MUMBAI: With the indigenously built Air Defence Ship (ADS) coming out of "drawing board", the Indian Navy could have two aircraft carriers by 2011, Defence Minister George Fernandes indicated here.

"The indigenously built ADS is out of drawing board and the first steel is likely to be cut by this year end. The aircraft carrier is likely to be inducted into the Indian Navy by 2011", Fernandes told a select group of mediapersons on board the missile destroyer off Goa Coast yesterday.

The country has already finalised the Admiral Gorshkov deal and the Russian aircraft carrier was likely to be inducted into the Indian Navy soon.

The Defence Minister's statement, who earlier witnessed breathtaking naval exercises somewhere in the blue waters of Arabian Sea, assumes significance in the backdrop of India's solitary aircraft carrier INS Virat being phased out in next 7-8 years.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Madhvendra Singh, who was also present on the occasion, said the Navy needs three aircraft carriers and the Government was well aware of "our concerns and accepts our position".

However, due to financial constraints "we will have two aircraft carriers" and once the situation improves, which, he said would in near future, then the country can have three aircraft carriers.

Posted by: Siddiqi Mar 10 2004, 04:54 AM

In my humble opinion, I believe the PN needs to improve its aircover first and foremost and have its own airwing seperate from the airforce manned by Navy pilots. PN also needs to invest in a few more subs, 10 is plenty. 4 to defend coast, 4 to hunt enemy and 2 as reserves. Any opinions??? :pkflg)

Posted by: capt.sathish Mar 11 2004, 01:25 PM

Posted by: MKI Mar 15 2004, 03:35 PM

Posted by: pfpilot Mar 15 2004, 09:20 PM

Man, we again and again compare 2 completely different navies,with different roles. But, since we are comparing, I will say that pakista needs more subs and need their own air wing, so they can do things without worrying about not being able get help by the PAF.
:pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg)

Posted by: Bilal Khan Mar 16 2004, 02:40 AM

Posted by: mig23_flogger Mar 17 2004, 03:01 AM

Posted by: Siddiqi Mar 17 2004, 02:44 PM

Posted by: TheEurofighter Mar 17 2004, 03:19 PM

this topic is retarded pakistani agosta's will blow everything out of the sky including indian kilo's which are the crappest subs on earth :megalol :megalol :megalol

Posted by: pfpilot Mar 17 2004, 05:55 PM

Eurofighter, you said that the agosta's will blow everything out of the sky including kilos.
Since when did the kilo sub start flying. More emotional talk. Man, I am pakistani aswell, but why don't you back up the claim the mighty agosta's can take the entire indian navy.
:pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg)

Posted by: pakibath Mar 17 2004, 09:12 PM

PNs future slogan should be Air Power Air Power Air Power. All of Pakistans military strength lies in Air power.

Posted by: Dashti Mar 17 2004, 09:52 PM

Posted by: TheEurofighter Mar 18 2004, 03:10 PM

Posted by: pfpilot Mar 18 2004, 09:55 PM

Sorry :unsure: , I misunderstood what you said, eurofighter.
:pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg)

Posted by: Hataf Mar 20 2004, 03:02 PM

Iam more worried about how to counter IN Brahmos , i think we should work with china to get some thing like

SS-N-22 Sunburn Anti ship missile @ mach 2.1 this will be pain for IN and very leathle if armed with nuke Tip this missile uses inertia guidance with update input from the targeting radar onboard a shipborne helicopter or a space satellite. When it is reaching the final stage of its flight, the missile’s Altair-designed multi-channel seeker uses active radar, anti-radiation and home-on-jam modes to ensure that the missile hits the target.,

the reason i am not infavour of slow Exocet or C803 is that it give the defending ship a good time to launch countermeasures and use jamming & eventually launching SA missiles . all so we need to do more on the air defence side which ever Frigate we get in future, at least 100-150km range air defence system that will take care of Brahmos and relaunch if first missile missed its target.


http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/3m80.asp

Posted by: imrans Mar 20 2004, 06:06 PM

dear all,

i personally think PN subs have done a great job. Should any future procurement for the navy in the future, PN should add more Agosta B submarines and dedicated naval attack a/cs.

The subs should be enough to deter IN ships away as it would require a lot of naval resources to hunt them down. Attack a/cs equipped with harpoon are for IN surface vessels destruction.

Posted by: thunderinaction Mar 21 2004, 02:14 PM

Well we are getting missile guided frigates and they will be having some missiles with them.These are good i think so but still destroyers are needed.

Posted by: Aruni Apr 6 2004, 04:28 PM

Posted by: PAFpilot Apr 6 2004, 04:31 PM

Posted by: shang_che Apr 6 2004, 09:26 PM

eeerrrmmm.....I think the discussion here is about Pakistan VS. India. !!!!

Posted by: Aruni Apr 7 2004, 02:03 AM

Posted by: Siddiqi Apr 8 2004, 08:43 AM

Posted by: USAM Apr 11 2004, 03:52 AM

And not to mention when they have carrier in 2008, JF 17 and J 10 or Mirage 2000-5 MKII will be around with C 803 and supported by AWACs and air fuel tankers 16 MIG 29 K would not be able to save that crap.


JF 17 ptrotype 03 have 3500 Km range.

Work on air tankers is being done right now.

Posted by: deltared075 Apr 11 2004, 05:43 AM

Posted by: Sarpa Apr 11 2004, 08:40 AM

Posted by: Orao Apr 12 2004, 04:30 PM

no matter how good Pakistan is with China, they will never start a war with India because of Pakistan.

The only good thing PN has is those Agosta Subs, nothing really I see worthy. In the future Gorshkov will be around and things will get even worse for PN. Before you even think about it, every PN surface combatant will be taken out with Indian Subs, anti shipping aircraft and other surface ships.

Pakistan should seriously focus on Submarines and heavily on Anti-Shipping aircraft.

MIIIs with those Chinese supersonic missiles still would need to get close and very close to IN's surface ships to launch their missiles because their radars are not good nor can you fit a big radar in them.

Don't ever think of sinking Gorshkov with PAF's MIIIs, just not going to happen, Agosta subs have a better chance but they are getting much older

If India ever gets those Akulas and Backfires, not only Pakistan would be in trouble but so would be China and ANY surface ship that crosses the Indian ocea.

Tu-22M is any ship's biggest fear that is why USN created F-14+E-2 combo in the first place.

Posted by: TBD Apr 17 2004, 06:26 AM

I heard that the French have pulled a fast one on Pakistanis with the Agosta subs. They down-graded the original design significantly in order to protect their secrets and technology since anything given to Pakistan will end up in China. And the building of the Agosta in Pak ship yard was nothing more than assembling French pre-fabricated parts under French supervision. All the electronics/sensors have been much down graded, such as stealth, propulsion, sonar, communication and navigation systems. This was intimated to the Indians by the French during their recent strategic interactions and independantly confirmed through intelligence sources by India.

Posted by: USAM Apr 18 2004, 03:14 AM

And who told you that prob... your dad in RAW?



Keep dreaming sucker while PAKISTAN right now makes more then 75% and going toward 100% in the near future.


Sometime you guys make me laugh.
:megalol :megalol :megalol :megalol

Posted by: TBD Apr 24 2004, 12:21 PM

Posted by: salaudin Apr 24 2004, 12:43 PM

Posted by: evergreentree Apr 26 2004, 10:10 AM

Pakistan's navy has no adequate ability to defend Indian attack. It has been proved in the war of 1971. pakistan's navy is too small, and lacks large combatants like indian Deli destroyer. I think the Pakistan's government should put more budget into navy.

Posted by: evergreentree Apr 26 2004, 10:25 AM

Posted by: Sarpa Apr 26 2004, 11:50 PM

Posted by: Hellscream Apr 27 2004, 03:19 AM

man eurofighter u need to understand that ur deluded one liners make no difference to the topic .plz read up and then post some stuff ...........
it is evident u know nothing abt the kilos or any of the upgrades or the versions IN has i would wager u know nothin much abt ur beloved PN itself .plz dont come back using profanity it dosnt help.......

Posted by: coocoocal Apr 27 2004, 10:54 AM

Here is an excellent, if somewhat dated, general overview of the Indian Navy, it's current force, goals, and future procurements. Probably the best overview I've seen so far

=========================


INDIAN NAVY IN THE 21ST CENTURY

Ranjit B Rai.

Naval Forces. Aldershot: 2003. Vol. 24, Iss. 6; pg. 33

"Sea Power in the broad sense -includes not only the military strength afloat that rules the sea or any part of it by force of arms, but also peaceful commerce and shipping, from which alone a military fleet naturally and health fully springs, and on which it securely rests."

HISTORY OF THE INDIAN NAVY

The present day Indian Navy can trace its pedigree line from two great Navies, the Royal Navy, and in more recent years, from the Soviet Navy. It has inculcated the best from both these fighting services. The origins of the Indian Navy can be traced to a maritime force established by the East India Company in the seventeenth century. This force had a variety of names - the Bombay Marine and the Indian Marine, until in 1934 its identity as the Royal Indian Navy was established. In the early years, the Indians served primarily in the lower-level positions. Following the Independence of India in 1947, the Royal Indian Navy inducted Indians into the officer cadre, to become the Indian Navy in 1952. However, it continued to be headed by British Admirals till 1958. During this period, the threats to India were seen by the national leadership to be more land-based, and this small service was sadly neglected. India's 'Cinderella Service' was spurned by the West, but in the legendary late Admiral Sergey Georgyevich Gorshkov of the Russian Navy, the Indian Navy found a true friend and an ardent admirer, especially after the missile attacks off Karachi during the 1971 war. India turned to Russia to have much of its military hardware requirements fulfilled against what came to be known as the 'rupee rouble easy credit trade'. However budgetary constraints could not support the acquisition plans of the Navy for long as India's debts rose sharply.

The mid 80s witnessed a sea change, with the Indian Navy undertaking bold and exciting modernisation programmes, that culminated with the induction of HDWI 1500 and United Admiralty Shipyard-built "Kilo" class submarines, a nuclear "Charlie" class missile firing boat INS "Chakra" on lease for four years, and the acquisition of the aircraft carrier INS "Viraat" (ex "Hermes") and IL 38 and Tu 142 MR aircraft. It also ambitiously embarked on building three large indigenously designed 6,700t "Delhi" class KH 35 URAN missile-firing destroyers with inputs from the Severnoye Design Bureau. The break up of the former Soviet Union in 1991 led to disruptions, as supplies and spares from Russia were not easily available. The Navy weathered the storm with innovations and cannibalisation, and the build up is once again on track, this time against dollar payments. With the recent acquisition of the most modern missiles firing "Krivak" class frigates INS "Talwar" and "Trishul" the Indian Navy is seen in the light of a powerful and potent professional force in this region. The ships are fitted with 16 vertical launched CLUB 3M-54 E SSMs, SHTIL and KASHTAN Air Defence systems and the FREGAT M2 EM, GARPUN BAL, COTS and NUCLEUS radars. The ships can operate the KA-32 AEW and KA-28 ASW helicopters supported by Indian-built hull mounted sonar, the HUMSA, and SSN 137 (NAGAN) towed array sonar and RBU 6000 ASW rockets as well as multi-purpose DTA 53 torpedo launchers. INS "Tabar" is to follow shortly and the Russians have offered a follow-on programme.

GEOPOLITICAL AND STRATIGIC SETTING FOR THE INDIAN NAVY

India's trade in the world's pecking order is only 1% of the whole, but it is estimated that 60% of the world's sea borne trade and energy resources transit through the Indian Ocean. The third millennium is witnessing the rapid resurgence of economies in the East, including those in both China and India. Post 9/11, there is a fear of instability born of terrorism and piracy at sea, which could disrupt world trade and transportation of energy resources that are carried via the sea lines of communication (SLOC) and choke points, both in and around the Indian Ocean. These include the Straits of Hormuz in the Gulf, Bab El Mandeb off Aden and Malacca Straits off the Singaporean, Indonesian and Malaysian waters.

Geographically India juts into the Indian Ocean and the three functions of its Navy - to be a war fighting force, an effective constabulary policeman in the area as well as contributing to benign and coercive diplomacy in the littoral, has gained relevance and strategic importance. In as early as March 2001, Admiral Dennis Blair, the then Commander-in-Chief of the United States Pacific Command, accepted that the Indian Navy's role was closely intertwined with preserving the SLOC in the Indian Ocean for the future economic security of the world. He sought to take measures for the Indian Navy and the United States Navy to harmonise engagement objectives, which could also enhance India's regional objectives with US co-operation. Indian naval planners took the cue and planned for a larger Navy. India's political leadership has finally also appreciated that India's long coast line of 7,500km, the safety of the 1,000 islands dotted around, and the off-shore energy assets have to be defended under the changed parameters of maritime security post 9/11. There is an acceptance that India's Navy needs to become a force to be reckoned with in the future.

India has also been accepted as a nuclear power. Hence, the Navy has scripted ambitions to possess a potent sea based second-strike capability and that programme is being generously funded to induct nuclear-propelled submarines. The Indian Navy of the future has therefore shifted focus from a Pakistan-centric force, to become a blue water sea control-capable maritime force. This was inevitable in the newly changed geopolitical and globalised scenario, with the Cold War a relic of the past. The India-US strategic relations have moved forward, from suspicion to engagement and co-operation. However, Russia remains the main supplier of both ships and naval aviation hardware to the Indian Navy and will, in the foreseeable future, continue to maintain a prime position. This offers the Indian Navy the best of both worlds and is discussed in this article, along with a blue print of its future and the challenges that it faces.

THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE INDIAN NAVY

Today, the Indian Naval strength stands at 140 Ships comprising one Aircraft Carrier INS "Viraat" (ex "Hermes"), three 6,700t "Delhi" and five 3,950t improved "Kashin" type "Rajput" class DDGs, and 26 front line frigates and corvettes with over 100 missile launchers. The underwater strength is 16 submarines (four HDWT 1500 and ten "Kilo" class, including at least three capable of launching underwater NOVATOR CLUB missiles, plus 150 aircraft and helicopters (24 SEA HARRIERs, 5 IL 38, 8 TU 142, 27 Dornier 228, 27 SHAKING, 11 KAMOV). The Coast Guard which has a "hook-on policy in war" has 55 ships, 24 Dornier 228 aircraft and 18 helicopters, including 2 Indian-designed 5t DHRUV ALH helicopters manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

The proposed 15 Year Ship Building Programme envisages a target of 185 Ships for the Indian Navy by 2017. Maritime security, anti-terrorism and EEZ security in the Indian Ocean has renewed support for the Indian Navy and the Coast Guard from many quarters, including USA and Japan. The Coast Guard also plans to induct 4 more Dorniers, ATR 42 Maritime Patrol Aircraft on offer by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. which has license agreements for supply, advanced OPVs, hovercraft and large oil pollution control vessels. Interestingly, selected Indian Coast Guard OPVs are fitted out with the 76mm OTOMelara gun produced under license by Government-owned Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. which supplies the guns to the Indian Navy also.

The Naval budget for the financial year 2003 is US$2.6bn. This represents 18% of the defence budget and is set to increase annually by 3%. China's naval budget of 39% of the Defence budget is often quoted in India, as China is viewed as India's competitor in the region, and a possible un-stated threat.

The target of 185 ships by 2017 is planned to be achieved by maintaining the ratio of revenue-to-capital expenditure at 40 : 60%. Aircraft carrier "Gorshkov" with a complement of 18 MiG 29K and 8 Ka 32/28 helicopters is awaiting clearance and is expected to join the fleet by 2005. A 37,000t STOBAR Air Defence Ship designed by the Indian Naval Design Directorate with LM 2500 gas turbines, has been ordered and funds have been advanced to the Cochin Shipyard. Therefore it is hoped that the indigenous carrier will join the fleet in 2010.

In June 2003, the Indian Navy has commissioned two "Krivak" class frigates of project 1135.6 (INS "Talwar" and "Trishul"), one indigenous Project 25A missile corvette (INS "Karmukh") and one "Ramta" fast attack craft imported from Israel. The Navy plans to add 4 to 5 ships annually by a twin approach of indigenous building and acquisition. A line of new three Project 17 "Shivalik" (formerly "Nilgiri") class frigates and Type 15A improved "Delhi" class destroyers are under construction, and ASW corvettes of approximately 2,400t are in final stages of order to the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) at Calcutta. The 4,450t INS "Beas" and "Betwa" improved "Leander" class frigates with steam propulsion equipped with 16 KH 35 URAN and the Rafael/IAI BARAK missiles are also in the final stages of delivery at GRSE. They will be commissioned by 2004.

There are plans to upgrade 2-3 large ships every year. BraliMos, India's missile of the future, is being developed and Indian sonars, ESM and CIC systems are being improved. The 30 year two line Submarine Building Programme has been accepted. Six Type 75 "Scorpene" submarines will be built in India at Mazagon Docks and the deal is awaiting final signature. Another line, possibly the "Amur" class will follow. By 2017, if India's economy continues doing well and can support the build up, the Indian Navy could possibly possess a three Carrier Battle Group Fleet with 20 MR Aircraft and 50 potent helicopters, and 185 ships and submarines. Two Deep Submerged Rescue Vessels (DRSVs) and additional FACs are under acquisition. Other import options for ships and MR aircraft are under consideration.

Nuclear Submarines will be introduced, including India's Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) which is being built at the Ship Building Facility at Vishakapatnam, and foreign Air Cushion Vehicles will be inducted. The Indian Naval Hydrographie arm has assisted Oman and Indonesia in charting their waters. The present survey fleet has 8 ships and the Government has offered funding for 6 ships to the Navy, to steer the programme. The Navy is on the look out for an economical catamaran design, and plans to fit the platform with the latest surveying equipment.

The Para Military Border Security Force (BSF) Water Wing is also expanding. It will have a large aviation wing of 6 MI 17 and DHRUV helicopters, Embraer 135 Legacy planes and flat bottomed platforms for deployment along the territorial borders. Twelve Large Craft with imported Australian speed boats on board are on order at Mazagon Dock Ltd. Four of these have already been delivered and the induction of manpower to man and operate these is the challenge that faces the BSF.

THE NAVY'S 15-YEAR PLAN

Navies are not built overnight, but require many years of sustained planning. Great navies also require, both to inculcate and also preserve traditions, as well as acquire the latest technology, with strong support from within the country and its Government. The Information Technology boom in India could not have come at a more opportune time for the Navy to induct computer systems off-the-shelf for its C4 I capabilities, which is denied by Western countries. The top brass of the Navy have been able to convince the Government that a long term plan is essential for the Navy to raise its strength from the present 140 to 185, in what is accepted as the 15-Year Plan and a 30-Year two line submarine building programme. The results are already in evidence, with India's four Government-owned shipyards having received firm contracts for long-term projects, backed by ample funds. The challenge now lies in the execution and construction of ships within costs and time limitations, as even today warships bought from Russia and fast attack craft from Israel, are cheaper and faster to induct.

The Navy has accordingly articulated a 'build and also buy' policy to ensure progressive increase in the strength of its Fleet, and to cater for the required de-commissioning. The Government has assured adequate funding and the Navy's share of the Defence budget has already increased by 3% to 18% of the US$ 14bn amounting to US$2.6bn for financial year 2003-04. Of this US$ 1.1 bn is provided under the head revenue for the running of the Navy, pay and allowances of its personnel (57,000 uniformed and 60,000 civilian) and US$ 1.5bn capital expenditure for purchases, inductions and expansion of shore facilities.

PRIDE AND HOPE OF THE NAVY THE TYPE-17 AND DELHI REPEAT

A revolutionary in-house Type 17 design (Canadian assistance for stealth features) of a 4,400t frigate with CODOG propulsion provided by 2 General Electric LM 2500 gas turbines supplied under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., and a Pielstick diesel with Wartsila power generators and seals was conceived by the Indian Navy and Mazagon Docks design teams. The first three are on order at Mazagon Docks, and the hull of the first, INS "Shivalik", has been launched early and the keel for the second has been laid. The weapon systems will be both indigenous and imported (having learnt from the experience of the "Krivak"s and others), and could include the BARAK MK 1 and the BrahMos missiles. This project is predicted to be path-breaking like the earlier "Leander" class project was, and will provide the Indian Navy with a thin grey line of missile frigates in the coming years.

The Indian DRDO and the NPO Mach of Russia have endorsed a business collaboration to co-produce the 290km multi-role cruise missile BrahMos in India. The three services have an interest in this YAKHONT-based missile. Dr. A. Si vathanu Pillai, a DRDO scientist has been appointed CEO and MD of the BrahMos Aerospace and a large building to house the establishment is coming up in the outskirts of Delhi. Hopes are also pinned on this missile to capture some of the export market in the region. The missile is reported to have inputs for homing and inertial navigation gained from the Indian experience of the PRITHVI and AGNI missiles. Five successful trial firings including one from INS "Rajput" have taken place and over 45 Russian scientists witnessed the latest one in November 2003 at the Chandipur test range. As the private sector defence company Larsen and Tubro had successfully engineered the stabilisation launch of the DHANUSH sea-based version of PRITHVI from an OPV, great hopes rest on this missile for deployment on ships.

The order for three improved Project 15 A 6,700ton improved "Delhi" class destroyers has also been placed with Mazagon Docks and the keel for the first has been laid. The original class of three ships in service has proved its value and has shown the Flag all around the world including the USA and Japan. Recently in October 2003, INS "Delhi" was berthed at LIMA 03 at Langkawi with a BARAK Air Defence system strapped on her, and this evinced keen interest from the 17 Navies gathered for the Review by out- going Prime Minster Mahathir Mohammed. Three large 5,700t Landing Ships Tank (LST) with helicopter decks capable of operating India's DHRUV ALH have been ordered at the GRSE Yard at Calcutta; the first is planned to be delivered in 2005. There are other orders for fast attack craft with GRSE, and with TRIBON CAD CAM systems in place in all defence shipyards, there is healthy exchange of designs and information which could see the construction time reduced. But improving productivity in Government-owned yards is their great challenge. All shipyards are headed by former Naval Admirals so the level of commitment is high.

INDIA'S SUBMARINE PROGRAMME - DERAILED BUT DUE TO RESTART

The inventory of the submarine arm of the Indian Navy was at its peak in 1991, with 20 submarines including a nuclear boat. The operational effectiveness of the submarine arm owes its glory to the dedication of its men who work under hardship conditions, and enough cannot be said in its praise. The arm was born in the late 60s with the operation of 8 "Foxtrot" class boats. It then went on to swiftly induct the ten silent double-decked "Kilo" and the "Charlie" class INS "Chakra" in 1987, imbibing the tenets of nuclear propulsion, which also carried out under water missile launches before being returned in 1991. But what is remarkable is that Mazagon Dock; and the Indian Navy successfully built two, top-of-the-line HDWT1500 class submarines with AEG SUT mod1 torpedoes, Singer LIBRASCOPE weapon controls and Kollmorgen periscopes at Mumbai at the same time. Regrettably due to a scandal, India's HDW programme was halted at Mazagon Docks. INS "Sindhushastra", the last of the "Kilo" class, joined the Fleet in 2000, and in its very first exercise showed how effective the underwater-launched Club missile was. It is reported that three more "Kilo" class submarines have been converted in their refits at the Admiralty Shipyard in Russia. The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. at Vishakapatnam has also signed an agreement with the Russian counterparts to execute EKM 877 "Kilo" class refits at its yard.

For the future, the Government has accepted two lines of submarine building in India, with transfer of technology to be included in the contracts. The Navy has designed its own Type 75 boat based on an audited design of the DCN "Scorpene", with options for the yet-to-prove MESA system, whilst fuel cell technology remains an option. The price negotiations for six conventional boats to be built at Mazagon Docks at a cost of over US$ 1.4bn are reported to be completed with the newly formed DCN and THALES combine, Armaris. The final go-ahead is eagerly awaited. This will be a new challenge as the old workers in MDL have left and the yard is being activated 'de novo'. The "Amur" 1650 has also been doing the rounds as the second line. The private contractor Larsen and Tubro, which has facilities to build reactor hulls at Hazira North of Mumbai, (and is reported to be building a module for the ATV, India's own nuclear boat), has indicated its interest in this project, with Russian collaboration. Government has recently permitted 26% Foreign Investment in the Defence sector by private companies.

Post the "Kursk" calamity the Government has accepted that rescue facilities are essential for that unlikely submarine accident. It has sanctioned the induction of two Deep Submerged Rescue Vessels (DSRV) and the Navy has been looking into the LR5 from the UK, as well as a Canadian design, amongst others. The Indian Navy has always experimented with innovation and is seeking to have additional facilities in the proposed self-propelled DSRV for Special Forces for rescue operations.

TECHNOLOGY TRANSFERS TO THE INDIAN NAVY - A FINE BALANCE

The Indian Navy has always been a " tech hungry Navy", and in the 1970's the task of integration of Soviet with Western and indigenous systems on the Project 16 "Godavari" class led to the formation of WESEE - Weapon & Electronics Systems Engineering Establishment in New Delhi - to develop bus bars and complex interfaces to integrate systems of different origins indigenously. The Navy did not depend entirely on the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The Navy's best brains were appointed to WESEE which subsequently flourished in corvettes and other follow- on programmes and continues to be the hub of electronics integration today. It has produced the EMCCA CAIO System for the Project 16A "Brahmaputra" class frigates and integrated transfer of technology from Italy from Elettronica for EW, and other countries for sonars. The new class of frigates for the Indian Navy will have systems with greater automation, e.g. BURIA for main propulsion machinery control, ANGARA for generation control, ONEGA for ship system control, KORRACKS for steering gear control, and DOLOMITE for stabiliser systems. CAE Marine Systems of Canada has been given the contract for Integrated Platform Management of Systems (IPMS) for the Type-17 frigates and LST(L) under construction. The Indian collaborations with GE for LM 2500, Cummins and Pielstick for diesels, Brown Brothers for steering gears and stabilisers and Vosper Thornycraft and Kelvin Hughes and BARCO for displays has also paid rich dividends.

With the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the sanctions placed by the USA after the May 1998 nuclear tests, the Navy found itself in a precarious situation. The aviation wing suffered when the SEA KING and SEA HARRIER spares were denied to them, whilst the submarines could not get support for their periscopes and systems. This is now in the past as the USA, Israel and European suppliers are no longer reluctant to offer latest technology. With Russia the formation of the JISWOG, a half yearly/quarterly meeting forum of specialists, irons out all issues at one platform and only those issues not resolved are raised to ministerial level.

At present, Russia and Israel are the main providers of technology to the Indian Navy and the Israel connection has elevated the Navy to a higherplane. Israel has supplied the BARAK Air Defence System, which the Navy has been able to transfer between ships. Reports indicate that seven BARAK systems have been supplied, and more are in the pipeline. The Navy had to take this decision when the home-grown DRDO TRISHUL system failed for the "Bramhaputra" class and INS "Viraat". Israel has also supplied the SEARCHER II and HERON UAVs with ground stations and multiple mission optical, infrared and radar sensors, and the Indian Navy had planned to operate these from Porbunder, Cochin and Port Blair to augment their surveillance and reconnaissance abilities. Seven ESM systems from Israel at a cost of US$110m have been recently sanctioned to augment the homebuilt AJANTA line of EW systems. More recently, the US-India High Technology Group meetings led by US Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, with India's National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra, is likely to lead to the opening of gates for India to receive amongst other items, defence technology as well. The agreement has been dubbed as the 'trinity glide path agreement for defence, trade and technology'. Colin Powell has said. "The glide path was a way to bring closure to the debate" (of dual technology denials.)

The DRDO's sonar research establishment set up in the proximity of IN's ASW school at Cochin in the 60s, the Naval Physical Oceanographie Laboratory (NPOL) has successfully pioneered the HUMSA hull mounted, NIGAM towed and HUMVAD VDS line of sonars. These are now manufactured by Bharat Electronics Ltd at Bangalore and fitted with BARCO consoles in all front-line ships, and towed arrays are being experimented. Credit for pioneering the projects and sustaining them goes to retired naval officer Arun Raj now at Stanford in USA and Dr. V. K. Aatre, a sonar specialist trained in Canada, who now heads India's DRDO. The Navy is now working on low frequency dipping sonars for the ALH.

INDIAN NAVAL AVIATION OF THE FUTURE

The acquisition of an aircraft carrier capable of launching CTOL (Conventional Take-Off and Landing) or STO-BAR (Short Take-Off-Barrier Arrested Recovery) aircraft gained momentum in the mid 90s after the Pakistani Navy received the American P-3C ORION capable of firing HARPOON ASMs from stand-off ranges. The Indian Navy felt insecure, vulnerable. The endurance of P-3Cs meant possible attack on Indian surface fleets from unexpected quarters. It became necessary for the Indian Navy to establish local air-superiority over stretches of seas without the help of land-based air cover. The STOVL (Short Take-Off Vertical Landing) SEA HARRIER fighters lacked the range and endurance for the projected mission.

The Indian Navy has settled for the de-commissioned Russian "Kiev" class aircraft-carrying cruiser "Admiral Gorshkov" that is to be reconfigured as an aircraft-carrier with a 14 degree ski jump. It is planned to embark customised MiG-29K fighters and ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) Kamov 28s and 31 AEW (Airborne Early Warning) helicopters. "Admiral Gorshkov" along with the MiG-29K. fighters and helicopters will provide the vital integrated air support, both in terms of Fleet area air defence and 'on-spot' ASW screening. The MiG-29Ks assisted by Kamov-31s will be able intercept enemy strike and MR/ASW platforms like P-3Cs at long ranges, thus preventing them from closing in and firing accurate anti-ship missiles like the HARPOON and EXOCET. This necessity becomes more acute if the enemy airborne platforms are guided to their targets by an AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) aircraft. In such situations land-based air cover may be too late to react. The Indian Air Force has contracted for three Uzbek IL 76s to be integrated with the Israeli IAI PHALCON AWACS system which could arrive in India in 2005 giving India a leap forward in air space control.

MiG-29Ks will also deny the operation of enemy MR/ASW aircraft in the vicinity of India's vital submarine operations, while assisting Indian MR/ASW platforms in their operational role by establishing local air superiority. Another vital role of India's CVBG (aircraft-carrier battle group) will be deployment of air defence fighters in the Arabian sea to destroy enemy airborne strike platforms in defence of India's vital nuclear and oil installations on the West coast. This is a very important requirement as enemy strike formations may deliberately try to avoid the IAF (Indian Air Force) ADGES (Air Defence Ground Environment System). The MiG-29K is well suited to this task, as it was derived from the fly-by-wire MiG-29M, with a more advanced ZHUK (beetle) PH radar capable of conducting four simultaneous attacks with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 ADDER) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles). Special mention needs to be made of the Naval TEJAS light combat aircraft ( LCA) that is being projected to operate from the ADS. It could represent the cutting-edge technology if it enters service.

MARINE COMMANDOS AND SHORE FACILITIES

In 1987 an elite Indian Marine Commando Force called MARCOS came into being. This 1,500 strong force of highly-trained 'toughies' is capable of diving and assault operations from the sea and air, has proved its mettle in the Sri Lanka OP Pawan India's foray into Sri Lanka in 1987 and in the lakes of terrorist-infected Kashmir. Many officers and men have been trained abroad. Plans post 9/11, and the lessons learnt from the Iraq War are to upgrade the MARCOS as special forces both in numbers and with equipment of quality. The old Italian "Cosmos" mini submersibles have out-lived their lives. The Navy is also speedily completing the first phase of its large new Naval base "Seabird" and fitting it out with the US$32m Syncrolift received from Florida USA, whose sub contractor is TTS Handling Systems of Norway for the transverse systems being built in India. The new Naval Academy at Ezhimalai on the West coast near Calicut where Vasco da Gama landed is also progressing well and dockyards are being upgraded.

CONCLUSION

The Indian Navy is by far the most pro-active and capable naval force in South Asia which with 'India's Look East Policy' can contribute to stability in the Indian Ocean and also enhance co-operation with other Navies. It has already facilitated many exchange visits, including one in November 2003 by INS "Ranji"t, INS "Kulish" and Tanker "Jyoti" for SAR exercises to China with whom India is engaged to solve its border disputes. The Navy held an impressive International Fleet Review in 2001 in Mumbai, hosted conferences and conducted multilateral SAR and other exercises with most Navies, as well as co-ordinated patrols with the USA in the Malacca Straits, and hosted ship visits. It has assisted neighbours in hydrographic surveys and disaster relief operations. The Indian Navy trains a few hundred foreign naval personnel annually and its hardware is coming of age. The mission statement of the present Navy Chief Admiral Madhvendra Singh is prophetic: "Most of all, I would like to be remembered as one who instilled and reinforced enduring core values and traditions in the Service for a World Class Navy."

Posted by: Vaiar Apr 27 2004, 12:11 PM

Posted by: alphacharlie May 3 2004, 12:07 PM

Dear All - Your comments pertaining to Goroshkov air components are not complete. Please note apart from 16 Mig29K`s the Indian Navy will consider placing other a/c on it aswell .This could include 10 Sea Harrier Jump Jets. There by taking its total strength to around 26. Consequently, making it a formidable force to recon with.

Do note the current momentum of sucess in LCA program it is possible the Indian Naval ship might host the same bird around 2008.

Posted by: Vaiar May 3 2004, 12:44 PM

The BR guys say that no Harriers will be placed on the ship next to the 16 MiG-29s and there also seems to be no place for them either.

Posted by: blain2 May 3 2004, 03:35 PM

Posted by: goodman May 10 2004, 11:37 AM

I think now we will get OFF TOPIC

Posted by: Malikman May 14 2004, 11:16 PM

well it has been on and off topic throughout.

the point is that most members here are not mature enough to hold a discussion like this.

hell, not even the defence ministers of both countries can!! :lol: :lol:

Posted by: ShitScaredbhangee May 16 2004, 01:00 PM

Pakintan has every means & logical thinking to pursue it's armed forces in the direction of a better AF or Army.navy is only secondary.

Posted by: Dashti May 16 2004, 09:15 PM

Posted by: capt.sathish Jun 22 2004, 01:26 PM

What is the CHINESE frigate that pak is going to acquire?

Being CHINESE I doubt it has the capability to do it's work properly without breaking down in the middle of combat.


Normally I pity any one who uses chinese tech. :((

Posted by: alexi Jun 22 2004, 10:35 PM

They are going to acquire some waste i think chinese stuff is always been a waste. look at their any kind of goods except some chinese show pieces. I think pak should get some stuff at least for its navy which is in dark when placed against india .hope they get those ships in large numbers.

Posted by: capt.sathish Jul 25 2004, 11:16 PM

Posted by: karan Jul 26 2004, 09:58 AM

Thats now...but later the PN will have something like 6 Agosta-90B Submarines, and 12 053H3 Guided Missile Frigates.  Which will be armed with Supersonic C-803 Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles, Exocet Anti-Ship Missiles, and U.S may even provide Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles.

Besides, the Agosta-90B Submarine's the most advanced Submarine in the Indian Ocean, and by the time you sign that Scorpene Submarine Deal  :rolleyes: God Knows when, they'll be 6 Agosta-90Bs backed by P-3 Orions hunting for your Subs.

Posted by: Siddiqi Jul 26 2004, 11:03 AM

Their products are generally just. simply..a big load of . CRAP! Their customers are just poor countries. I really pity the men using those machines. 

Posted by: ShitScaredbhangee Jul 26 2004, 01:18 PM

Posted by: Siddiqi Jul 28 2004, 08:59 AM

India has an obligation to uphold by it's panchsheel principle. It is not allowed to sell it's arms technology to the outside world. They are only now slowly & very slowly scrapping that policy after the end of the cold war.
Well looks like kids born RECENTLY haen't read through history very much.

Posted by: ShitScaredbhangee Jul 28 2004, 11:59 AM

The panch sheel was promoted by Jawarharlal nehru. It reinforces mainly the non-alignment foreign policy the indian government took.
Under it India should never, I repeat NEVER sell weapons or even technology which can be used as a weapon.type panchsheel on google. you'll get the results.

Posted by: Tajmahal Jul 28 2004, 12:25 PM

Which countries buy chinese weapons? Those countries which have no option but have to weapons for exemple Pakistan, Bangladesh, North Korea, Zimbabue. These countries are well known in the world for their...........

Posted by: PEZ Jul 28 2004, 05:10 PM

pakistan has other sources also, gadhay, trying to put pakistan with nk and other shitty countries

face it, no one wants indian weapons, and chinese weapons r better

Posted by: Mr.Ayoub Jul 28 2004, 05:26 PM

The real comparison should be with China's navy. Pakistan is a littoral navy with no 'blue-water' navy capability in mind. This exercise is utterly pointless along with all the other arm chair anaylsts who are participating.

Posted by: DarkRifler Jul 28 2004, 05:54 PM

The quality of Chinese weapons vis-a-vis India cannot be compared!! Indian weapons have a long way to go before anything can be said about them.

Posted by: Siddiqi Jul 29 2004, 07:33 AM

The quality of Chinese weapons vis-a-vis India cannot be compared!! Indian weapons have a long way to go before anything can be said about them.

Posted by: penguin Jul 29 2004, 04:29 PM

I agree with u, Chinese weopons may not be the best but they r far better than indian weopons.  

Posted by: MKI Aug 5 2004, 08:36 AM

Would it be better to change the name of the thread to Indian and Chineese Navys? Rather than Pakistan Navy? The discussion seem to have gone way off tangent here

Posted by: penguin Aug 5 2004, 04:52 PM

Would it be better to change the name of the thread to Indian and Chineese Navys? Rather than Pakistan Navy? The discussion seem to have gone way off tangent here

Posted by: CAPTAIN-JI Aug 5 2004, 10:54 PM

Its pointless to discuss the indian navy...nodoubt its biggest navy,,,but the greatest problem is 50 percent of its fleet is parked, cuz shortage of maintenance, short of parts and also navel defence short falls.....remember Indian navy is not totally operational navy...

Posted by: Mark Sien Aug 6 2004, 01:25 PM

Posted by: penguin Aug 7 2004, 02:41 AM

Chinese defence exports, how much has India exported?

Posted by: deltared075 Aug 7 2004, 05:27 AM

Air-superiority win the wars, not the ground troops.

Posted by: Hellscream Aug 7 2004, 05:29 AM

PN has 4 obsolete daphnes have these been upgraded ??
and some AGOSTA 70's could someone give me the specs ??

Posted by: leuitenentcolonel Aug 8 2004, 08:05 AM

Bangladesh Navy's Shopping List 2004, Finalised

Bangladesh Navy's Shopping list:

Submarines (4)

Guided Missile Frigates (3)

Missile Corvettes (4)

Fast Attack Craft (Missile) (4)

Offshore Patrol Vessels (7)

Patrol Boats (Gun) (7)

Inflatable Boats (35)

Maritime Patrol Aircraft (2)

Anti-submarine Helicopter & handling deck for DW200H Frigate (1 with option to buy additional units)

Long Range Surface-to-Surface Missiles and missile systems for all Bangladesh Navy warships

Long Range Surface-to-Air Missiles and missile systems for all Bangladesh Navy warships

Caterpillar Marine Engine for BNS Osman (1)

© Bangladesh Military Forces. All rights reserved

_____________

The refits and installation of all weapons systems, combat systems, sensors, engines on the Bangladesh Navy's ships will be done indegeniously. Also a 300 tonne Offshore Patrol Vessel is being built at the Khulna Shipyards, which is run by the Navy.

http://logodesigns-online.co.uk/bmf/website/index.htm

Posted by: leuitenentcolonel Aug 8 2004, 08:12 AM

MODS KINDLY LOOK AT THIS PROBLEM IT HAPPEN TO ME SECOND TIME I WAS POSTING THE ABOVE REPLY IN GLOBAL MILLITARY WATCH AND IT POSTED HERE WATS THIS KINDLY SOLVE IT OUT



HELLSCREAM I HAVE BEEN ASKING SAME QUESTION FRM MANY DAYS I THINK PAKISTAN HASNT GIVEN ANY UPGRADE TO ITS SUB FLEET YET AND YES ITS REQUIRED PAK SHOYULD UPGRADE ITS 70 B

Posted by: capt.sathish Dec 18 2004, 01:35 PM

You people may not know this, by the indian navy also has a fleet of amphibious ships. Now why in thw orld may thay have that, unkess planning to invade karachi.
Because other than that I don't see any ptherusde for the amphibious fleet.

Posted by: goodman Dec 19 2004, 12:47 AM

You people may not know this, by the indian navy also has a fleet of amphibious ships. Now why in thw orld may thay have that, unkess planning to invade karachi.
Because other than that I don't see any ptherusde for the amphibious fleet.

Posted by: Mark Sien Dec 20 2004, 04:48 PM

PN has 4 obsolete daphnes  have these been upgraded ??
and some AGOSTA 70's could someone give me the specs ??

Posted by: sharjeel Dec 20 2004, 06:11 PM

we will be doomed. we can do with a career group. but at moment it is best if we donot get one. we should firstly boost the defense of the navy to compete with the navy of our chief nemasis the offensive carrear strike force to counter others will then come later. we can use some land launched anti ship missiles and also some anti ship cruise missiles. and also some ship mounted ASMs but best deterant as ISI once sed is get a yaun class with VLS and shuv some nukes in there. this will ensure safety against the indians. and will become a lethal wepon if coupled with datalink enabled targeting system on board and target info can be given by search aircraft.

can pakistan purchase unmanned helis the USN is making????

Posted by: capt.sathish Feb 2 2005, 02:12 PM

If the chinese can lend some of their JH-7 ten pak navy "COULD" have a chance with gorshkov.

Posted by: IDonT Feb 4 2005, 11:38 PM

If the chinese can lend some of their JH-7 ten pak navy  "COULD" have a chance with gorshkov. 
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Posted by: capt.sathish Mar 10 2005, 01:46 PM

Can you be a bit more elaborate? What is JH-7 lacking?

Posted by: amaccpc Mar 17 2005, 05:33 AM